Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 24: Electronic Edition

Pages 46 - 50 of 192

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    Sorry. I think the translation, the proper translation,
 1is to kill them all, but, unfortunately, I cannot do it.
 2I have said this now three times and I think it is-- I do
 3not want to ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Adolf Hitler was telling the editors of the leading
 5newspapers in Germany, "I just wish I could kill all the
 6intellectuals" in 1938?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, "But I cannot do it, unfortunately". That is what it
 8says in the text here.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. This is the image you now have of that kind of thing
1055 years later, but how would the editors have picked up
11at the time if that was the meaning of the word
12"ausrotten" in 1938? You appreciate that the meaning of
13words change over the years and when Adolf Hitler uses the
14word in 1938, the editors sit there thinking, "Yes, he
15wants to abolish them, he wants to get rid of the upper
16classes", just the same as Tony Blair gets rid of the
17House of Lords?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, not the upper classes. I do not think
19that is right.
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The intellectual classes -- well, then he could have said,
21"Well, actually I want" -- I said this here in my report,
22I said if he were just referring to a kind of, you know,
23social, you know, reform or reform of the educational
24system or some leveling of class, something like that, he
25could have said so. He could have said, "Actually I want,
26you know, to be more, Hitler jungen in the universities.

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 1I do not want to get -- I would like to get rid of the
 2sons of academics, well-established people", but he says
 3he used the term "ausrotten". I cannot help this-- it is
 4here and ----
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Just one more question on that. Would it not be a
 6parallel if Tony Blair said he wanted to rid of the House
 7of Lords, wipe out the House of Lords, would he not say
 8"ausrotten" there and would that mean that he wanted to
 9stand them against a wall?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     That is a hypothetical question. How can I answer this
11question?
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     But it is that kind of word and that kind of situation, is
13it not? "This is a body which is bothering me. I wish
14I could, "Out, out, damn spot"?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     If you ask me as an historian, I should make a historical
16comparison, then you have to include in this picture that
17Tony Blair just killed 91 Conservative Member of
18Parliament. So this would give you a kind of -- and then
19if he would use at the same time, at the next day the term
20"ausrotten", I would look at it and say, "Well, a
21dangerous man".
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, let us move on because really this
23is not, I think, a very helpful exercise.
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It is difficult for me to make such comparisons.
25 MR IRVING:     I did not drag in the 90 deaths and I am going to
26have to ask a question. Did Hitler order the Jews killed

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 1that night?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Did Hitler?
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or did Hitler order the Jews killed in
 4Reichskristallnacht?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think that bears on the issue we are
 6considering at the moment.
 7 MR IRVING:     It bears on the questions of intent behind the word
 8"ausrottung"?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, I think that Hitler played a centre role in the
10launching of the Kristallnacht.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     We know your views on that.
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Pardon?
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you now go to document No. 8, please?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You did ask the question, Mr Irving.
15 MR IRVING:     He then answered a totally different question
16whether Hitler played a central role or not.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us move on if we have to do this
18exercise, let us do it quite quickly.
19 MR IRVING:     Page 8.
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I could not complete my answer, sorry.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is a 1941 document, a book again in German [German -
22document not provided]
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was Hungary exterminating the ethnic minorities?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, you see, give me the chance, you know, to read the
26book. Maybe the book, it might be a pamphlet from

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 1somebody who said, well, actually the Hungarians are
 2killing, literally killing, the minorities. I do not know
 3the order. I do not know whether Paclisanu is a reliable
 4author. I have not seen the book and I do not know
 5whether the book says -- I do not know whether you have
 6read the book -- if the book says that the Hungarians are
 7killing the minorities. There might be somebody ----
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is a fair answer. Without that
 9further information, I do not think that particular cover
10page really helps.
11 MR IRVING:     Well, if this expert witness can answer the
12question whether Hungary was killing ethnic minorities,
13that would clarify what the title meant.
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, I do not -- that is in 41. I am a bit hesitating here
15because, well, they actually were quite rude with
16the minorities after that, but I cannot comment on that
17without actually looking at the content of the book.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Dr Longerich, at this stage in our discussion, therefore,
19we can agree that the word "ausrotten" can mean just about
20whatever you want it to mean?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, clearly not. You have to look at the context and the
22context will help you to establish a meaning of the word,
23I think.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you turn the page now to page 9, this is my summary of
25a telegram which I found in the Roosevelt library.
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, I would suggest that I should comment not on your

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 1summary but on the original, given the experience we have
 2before.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is one way out of answering the question, is it not?
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, Mr Irving, that is not fair. Do you
 5refer to this yourself, Dr Longerich?
 6 MR IRVING:     No, he does not.
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No. Sorry for interrupting you.
 8 MR IRVING:     Are you suggesting, therefore, that I have
 9deliberately copied faked quotations from a telegram from
10my own files?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, but I have the experience and that quite upset me that
12you left out here half a sentence of a sentence without
13actually ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which repeated the precisely the same four words that were
15earlier in the sentence, right?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have left that document. Let us look at
17this one.
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I am just saying, I am not just -- I am not happy, you
19know, just to comment on your summary of a report I have
20not seen in the original. I think it would be
21inappropriate for me, as an historian, to comment on
22that. I should see the original and I should not draw
23conclusions from your summary.
24 MR IRVING:     Shall we try, unless his Lordship says that
25I should not ask the question about this?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This appears to be -- is it Swiss?

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