Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 24: Electronic Edition

Pages 41 - 45 of 192

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    No, but I think that people had felt, that people in
 1probably their life was under danger. I think that is
 2quite fair to say.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     The entire Czech nation or just a few left wingers
 4and ----
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     That people felt that their life was in danger.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Move on to the next passage, please? This is one you have
 7quoted, is it not? This we do not have to argue whether
 8he has been correctly reported or not because this is from
 9a transcript of a speech that Hitler made to the Nazi
10editors on November 10th 1938.
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. This is actually the day, the day after
12Kristallnacht, so the day, during the night approximately
13I think 90 or more people were killed, so this gives you a
14kind of background. Now, the term here Hitler is
15hesitating in this speech. He says, "Well" -- may be
16I should go, I have to go to my ----
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is quite a complicated sentence. Can you
18translate it?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Sorry, I have to go to my own text and I have to compare
20the two text. I am sorry about this.
21 MR IRVING:     While you are doing that, can I set it in context?
22Is Hitler saying ----
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I am sorry, I cannot do this and listening to you. I have
24to find my ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just pause a moment, Mr Irving.
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I have to find my own text. I know that it is somewhere.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     On page 21, in paragraph 6.12.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, thank you very much, Mr Rampton.
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. Yes, and then the sentence -- you did not give the,
 4you stop in the middle of the sentence and you did not
 5include the last five words, and the last five words in
 6German are "aber man brauch Sie leider", "but we need
 7them, unfortunately". So the context is that he is going
 8to say, "Well, actually, you know, I could when I look at
 9the intellectual classes in Germany, you know, one could,
10I could come to the conclusion", and then he is hesitating
11and saying "ausrottung", and then he goes on and says,
12"Well, unfortunately, we need them". So he is saying
13this idea to ausrottung, to kill the intellectual classes
14is completely illusionary, and so he has to come back and
15says, "I cannot do it".
16     You see, I have difficulties with this kind of,
17you know ----
18 MR IRVING:     My Lord, can I just translate the sentence for you?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, do not interrupt.
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     --- I have difficulties actually to with these kind of
21documents which come in the last minute and leave out an
22important passage of the sentence, of the German
23sentence. Please give me sometime always to find the
24original if I have not got it in my report, I actually
25would like to insist that the original is here because
26I think this is not the way one can do it.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Dr Longerich, I have some sympathy with that,
 2particularly as you have pointed out that there is quite
 3an important bit of that same sentence omitted in
 4Mr Irving's piece of paper.
 5 MR IRVING:     Can I just read out the translation of that
 6sentence to you, my Lord?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, because it has just been read out.
 8 MR IRVING:     I do not think he has actually read out the
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I have read it; I thought he did.
11 THE WITNESS:     I can do it if you want to.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do if you want to, but include the last words
13because they make quite a big difference, it seems to me.
14 MR IRVING:     Not in my submission, but there we are. "I look at
15the intellectual classes amongst us, then, unfortunately,
16well, you need them, otherwise, I do not know, you could
17ausrotten them or something like that, but unfortunately
18you need them". I do not understand why you say I left
19out the words "man brauch Sie an"?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Because you stop the sentence here with the colon and, in
21fact, the sentence is not stopping. You give as reference
22[German - document not provided] and this is not a
23complete, a complete sentence. You stopped in the middle
24of the sentence and left out the last five words. You
25should have used -- I mean ----
26 MR IRVING:     Which are the words that I left out?

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     If your interpretation differs, you should have used, you
 2know, the normal, you know, these little dots one uses if
 3one does not insert the complete sentence.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Dr Longerich, which are the words you say that I left out?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He has said many times, "aber man brauch Sie
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     "So you cannot kill them because we need them".
 8 MR IRVING:     Are those words not on the fourth line of my
 9quotation on page 7? "Man brauch Sie"?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, they are, but they come in twice
11and don't let us spend too long on this.
12 MR IRVING:     Precisely, my Lord, but the whole point I am
13looking at there is this is Adolf Hitler in 1938 when
14nobody is liquidating anybody ----
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Except the 90 people who just died the night before, and
16this is the little exception one has. I mean, you have to
17realize the context is that this is the most brutal
18killing which happened in Germany since, I think, the
19Middle Ages. There are more than 90 people, I would say
20several hundred people possibly were killed the last
21night, and in this atmosphere Hitler is giving a press
22conference and speaks about the ausrottung of
23intellectuals. I think one cannot, you know, one has to
24look again at the historical context because this is, you
25know, an atmosphere which is dominated by brutality and a
26kind of absence of public order and law. I think, you

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 1know, this has to be included here.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Your answer invites two questions, unfortunately. The
 3first question is was Adolf Hitler, to your knowledge, at
 4the time you made this speech on the afternoon of November
 510th aware that 90 people had been killed during the
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I do not know. I do not know that.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     The second question is, are you, therefore, suggesting
 9that the verb "ausrotten" is not a mass extermination but
10a midget extermination, if I can put it like that, of just
1190 people? Is that the scale you put "ausrotten"?
12I thought that "ausrotten" meant extermination on a huge
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, I am just saying that when he made this, he made the
15statement and the statement says, "I can't kill them, I
16would like to but I can't kill them", but one has to look
17at the atmosphere of this very day.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It always comes back to context?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     That is what I am trying to say.
20 MR IRVING:     Precisely, but a perfectly reasonable
21interpretation of the word "ausrotten" there would be get
22rid of them, abolish the intellectual classes, abolish
23the ----
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The translation here ----
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- upper classes?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     

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