Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 24: Electronic Edition

Pages 31 - 35 of 192

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    Can we now go to page 2 which is a 1935 Nazi
 1Lord, the translation is the final paragraph on that page.
 2"National socialist legislation", the actual phrase which
 3I am going to look at is "National Sozialische Deutschland
 4des Judentums etwa richtiglos ausgerottet wurde".
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Where is that?
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     So there is a specific reference here to ----
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Fourth line?
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 9 MR IRVING:     --- the fourth line of the German. Here you
10have: "National Socialist legislation has now introduced
11corrective measures against this overalienisation. I say
12'corrective' because the proof that the Jews are not
13being ruthlessly ausgerottet", which I say is rooted out,
14"in National Socialist Germany, is that in Prussian alone
1533,500 Jews were working in the manufacturing industry,
1689,800 are engaged...", and so on. So he is talking
17clearly there about rooting out, is he not, not about
18liquidating because this is 1935, no one is killing Jews
19at that time, are they?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I take your word that this is the authentical texts.
21I have not seen this document myself. I do not know the
22context. He is saying that the Judentum, which is
23probably the Jewry in this context, is not ausgerottet in
241935, which is perfectly true, I think. It is a
25preHolocaust document, I cannot see ----
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is a Nuremberg document, is it not, if you look ----

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But the point that is being put,
 2Dr Longerich, is that "ausrotten" is being used there in a
 3context which has nothing to do with extermination. That
 4is the only point that is being put.
 5 MR IRVING:     By a Nazi, in connection with the Jews?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, so it is not the Jews, it is the Judentum, the term
 7"Judentum" means here, let us say ----
 8 MR IRVING:     The Jewish community?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     --- the Jewish community, the alleged social position of
10the Jews in Germany, their property, their wealth and so
11on. So I think that, and so far the term means not only
12human beings, a collective, but it also means more than
13that, and in this sense the Judentum was not ausgerottet,
14so that is....
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     The next page, Dr Longerich, on page 3 is the English
16translation, but you can look at the German, if you wish,
17which is on page 5. This is on item that you yourself
18have adduced. This is Adolf Hitler's use of the word
19"ausrottung" in 1936. He is not talking about Jews, but
20it is the same word. He is talking about the need for an
21economic four-year plan. On page 3 he puts in this
22sentence: "A victory of Bolshevism over Germany would not
23lead to a Versaille Treaty, but to a final destruction,
24indeed the ausrottung of the German nation", "volk". Is
25Hitler saying that if the Bolsheviks succeed in war
26against Germany, they are going to exterminate the German

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 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I am sorry. Normally, I have more time to interpret
 3documents than this one or two minutes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is one referred that you yourself have referred to
 5though, is it not, in your glossary?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     So I just have to look at it because I quoted it myself in
 7my own document, he goes then on and says after you stop
 8here, "And if the ausrottung", he tries to explain what
 9"ausrotten" means. In English, it says here that:
10"After a Bolshevik victory, the European states,
11including Germany, would experience the most terrible
12catastrophe for its people since humanity was affected by
13the extinguishing of the states of classical antiquity".
14So I think if you say, "Well, this will be worse than the
15end of the Roman Empire", this statement involves clearly
16that this will be done in a very, that this ausrottung
17will be done in very cruel manner, it will cost a lot of
18lives. I think this is implicit here in Hitler's words.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     But "ausrottung" here cannot be equated to the word
20"extermination", can it? He is not saying, "If the
21Bolsheviks win in a future war, it will lead to the
22extermination of the German people", he is saying, "It
23will lead to the emasculation of the German people or the
24end of them as an important power in Europe"?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I would not agree because when he makes this reference,
26"It is more terrible than the end of the Roman Empire,

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 1the states", he says.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Then it is quite something. I mean, this is not just, you
 4the Versaille Treaty, as he said. It is not just the
 5collapse of the German Empire; it is much, much more.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Hunger, starvation and pestilence.
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     In a way, I am trying not to speculate what Hitler thought
 8in 1936 what is actually more terrible than the end of the
 9Roman Empire. I think it is quite reasonable to assume
10that this kind of "ausrottung" would, as the end of the
11Roman Empire did, involve the killing of many, many
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you just for my benefit translate
14quickly, if you would not mind, the immediately following
15words, where he talks about what a catastrophe that would
17 MR IRVING:     "The extent of such a catastrophe cannot be really
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Next sentence?
20 MR IRVING:     "How the densely populated west of Europe,
21including German, would survive after a Bolshevik
22collapse, it would experience probably the most awful
23national catastrophe since the extinction of the antique
24states -- since the" -- it is a complicated sentence.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is a complicated sentence, but,
26Dr Longerich, it is all pretty apocalyptic stuff, is it

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 1not, that he is ----
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. Exactly, and I think I translate it a little bit
 3more, I said, "The most terrible catastrophe",
 4"grauenhaft", I think is the word "terror" in it, and so
 5it is ----
 6 MR IRVING:     "Awesome"?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think it is more than that.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I just ask you briefly about this document. This is,
 9of course, a document dictated by Adolf Hitler to his
10private secretary, is it not? It is not a speech. He is
11choosing his words carefully.
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. I do not know whether he dictated this to his
13private secretary. It is a document he provided for
14Goring. It is an instruction for Goring to carry on
15with ----
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, I know because Christa Schroeder told me he dictated
17it to her.
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I am trying to explain this to the court. It is the
19document which actually says that Germany should be able
20within four years to fight the next war. So it is an
21instruction for Goring. But I think if we go -- no,
22I cannot read more than that in this document.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have your answer about that document
25 MR IRVING:     Yes. Page 6, again we are still in 1936, but
26collection of documents published obviously by anti-Nazis

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