Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 24: Electronic Edition

Pages 166 - 170 of 192

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    I am a bit cautious about that, if I may say so,
 1to in cross-examination. In the face of the documents and
 2what I might call common sense, I do not believe it is
 3right that he should be allowed to reconsider his
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us wait and see what his position finally
 6turns out to be, and then we can argue about it if needs
 7be. But let me know, please, in the morning and now carry
 8on with your cross-examination.
 9 MR IRVING:     I do not think it is an enormously vital point
10actually in the whole Holocaust denial issue one way or
11the other.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If it is not a vital point, it may be you
13will keep with your concession.
14 MR IRVING:     Mr Rampton is yelping before he is hurt actually.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not let's denigrate his motives.
16 MR IRVING:     Yes. Page 62, if you look at footnote 157, please,
17you quoted there a document, a wartime document, in the
18last three lines of that footnote there, a very
19confidential information report: "The number of Jews in
20this entire area is estimated at 6 million and in the
21course of the coming year they are going to be brought
22across the Urals or otherwise got rid of"?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does that not also indicate that the primary German
25intention was the geographical movement, dumping them
26across the Urals?

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, it says ----
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Chased across the Urals?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, it says two things. First of all, it is referring to
 4the biological eradication of the entirety of Jewry in
 5Europe -- sorry, I am confused now. Sorry, those are two
 6different documents, yes. You are looking here at this
 7confidential report which are the notes of the reporter,
 8so this is from a press conference, from a press
 9conference, and under the heading "strictly
10confidential". So somebody in the press conference said
11that, you know, a way to solve the problem is to bring
12this estimated 6 million across the Urals.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. But does that not indicate that there were two
14things being spoken of at that time, the geographical
15chasing across the Urals, generally spoken of at that
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, I think it is quite ----
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Failing which we are going to have to liquidate them"?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This refers to -- yes, somebody in the press conference
20said in November '41, "It is still a feasible way of
21solving this problem to bring these people over the
22Urals". So that is all I can say.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is a press conference by Rosenberg, right?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is not a vitally important point, but there does
26appear, even at that time, to have been a degree of

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 1uncertainty as to what was going to happen?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, but one should then also, if one speaks about this
 3press conference, one should not leave out the words, you
 4know, Rosenberg's words, "biological eradication of the
 5entirety of Jewry".
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     They are both second-hand reporting, are they not? One is
 7by the [German]?
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Who is that? I forget who that was, Rosenberg, but,
10anyway, it is a second-hand report, is it not?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Over the page, of course, page 63, we have something that
13is very first-hand. This is the vital Heinrich Himmler
14note of 18th December 1941.
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     You probably know what I am going to ask you, if you have
17the phrase Judenfrager als partisan and ausurotten, what
18does that mean? How would you translate that into
19English? Als partisan and ausurotten?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, to be extirpated as partisans.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I think there is no question in this case that it
22has a homicidal meaning, does it not?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     And what does one normally do with partisans in warfare?
25Are they shot?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I do not know what one normally does, but from the -- the

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 1orders were here clear. I mean, I refer to this orders at
 2the beginning. The orders here were clear that a civilian
 3who would, you know, actually -- a civilian who ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Who takes guns up"?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     --- who takes guns up, yes, would be shot on the spot.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is the basic laws of war, the Frank tireur(?) are
 7shot. The Americans did it, we did it.
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, I only can answer this question as far as the German
 9Army and the war on the East is concerned. It was, you
10know ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     If it had said the partisan and ausrottung, that would
12have been to be shot like partisans ----
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, it would be different.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     That would have been a totally different meaning, would it
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It would be different, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does the meaning of that sentence as it stands imply that
18these were Jewish partisans who were to be shot as
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No. "Juden to be extirpated as partisans". It does not
21mean that only Jews have recognized as partisans were
22shot, they are just Jews were shot as partisans.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "As if they were partisans", that is what it
24comes to?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is your evidence?

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 2 MR IRVING:     Although it does say "as partisans" and not "like
 3partisans", if I can put it in English. I do not want to
 4hang that on the big bell, as you say in German, but there
 5is a difference between the two words "als" and "wie", is
 6there not?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but I think the witness is not accepting
 8your interpretation, Mr Irving.
 9 MR IRVING:     Well, the translation is specific, but he may not
10accept the interpretation of it, of course, the
11conclusions from it. Paragraph 17.7, you have Adolf
12Hitler, on the fifth line of that, on 30th January 1942,
13saying that it is clear the war can only end with either
14the Aryan peoples being extirpated or the Jews
15disappearing from Europe", "Das Judentum aus Europa
16verschwindet". That again implies a geographical
17solution, does it not? This is 10 days after the Wannsee
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, "das Judentum aus Europa verschwindet", I think that
20this expression, "aus Europa verschwindet", could be seen
21as a camouflage language that actually disappeared from
22the German, from the area under German control, by, you
23know, anyhow. There was actually no chance how, you know,
246 million Jews could disappear at this stage from the
25German, from the territory under German control.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     

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