Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 24: Electronic Edition

Pages 161 - 165 of 192

<< 1-5191-192 >>

 1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, in German, for reported speech they use the
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Because we do not and that is why I was a bit
 5 MR IRVING:     They do in various other languages too, I think the
 6Spanish also do and...
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Can I intervene? I have not all the references
 8I want, but I suspect this may be sufficient. On day 4
 9which is, because I think we can put a stop to all this
10now ----
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think, unfortunately, we have moved past
12it .
13 MR RAMPTON:     I am so sorry.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not your fault, but I asked for
16 MR RAMPTON:     It is not my fault, no, because, as a matter of
17fact, I do not have time to read the transcripts in this
18case at the moment. I will have to do that in due course.
1917th January, page 95 -- this reflects and earlier
20concession which I have not presently found -- line 1,
21question by me: "The probability that Hitler saw that
22report", that is report No. 51, "and was, therefore,
23implicated in the murder of all these 363,000 Eastern Jews
24is confirmed, is it not, by a subsequent knowledge of this
25document, by which I mean the Himmler note of the 18th
26December of that year?" Answer by Mr Irving: "Yes, there

.   P-161

 1is no contention between us on that point".
 2     Then if one turns to page 106 on the same day,
 3we find your Lordship asking some questions, and at line
 419, Mr Irving says: "What authorized, my Lord? The
 5killing of Jews, the partisans?" Question by your
 6Lordship: "Yes, you accepted that, I thought, a few
 7minutes ago". Answer: "The Jews to be liquidated as
 8partisans, 16th December, the conversation, yes. If we
 9can expand that very meagre note, that skimpy note, into
10that interpretation which I think is a legitimate
11expansion, certainly Hitler sanctioned the killing of the
12Jews on the Eastern Front, all the rest of the Jews, the
13non-German Jews, and that has never been a contention for
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, that looks fairly clear.
16 MR RAMPTON:     It is fairly clear. The next day it becomes even
17clearer at page 10, day 5, again it is your Lordship, this
18is line 12 on page 10: "Let us just keep an eye on the
19reality. You did accept yesterday, as I understood it,
20the shooting of Jews and others on the Eastern Front was a
21programme which was systematic and co-ordinated by Berlin
22and Hitler was aware and approved of what was going on?"
23Mr Irving: "The shootings of Russian Jews, my Lord, yes".
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Russian Jews?
25 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. That means everybody but the people who were
26coming from Germany. In other words, he is not conceding

.   P-162

 1that the shooting of the Berlin Jews in Riga was
 2authorized, but he is conceding that there was systematic
 3mass shooting by the Einsatzgruppen of the Jews in the
 4East which was authorized and approved by Hitler.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, well again that does look to be fairly
 6clear, Mr Irving. This is difficult for you because you
 7are in the middle of your cross-examination, but I think
 8you must pause and reflect about this because it seems to
 9me that Mr Rampton is probably right in saying, although
10I recollect a lot of cross-examination going the other
11way ----
12 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I have made a note of the ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- Mr Rampton may be right in saying you
14ultimately did concede it.
15 MR IRVING:     I have made a note of the page number of the
16transcript and I shall certainly attend to it, but I do
17not think this is the time or place to do it. Certainly
18I cannot do it on the hoof like this.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I think that is right. The problem, of
20course, is that we do not want a lot of cross-examination
21which strictly really is not really relevant because it is
22a point you have conceded, but I think you have really
23moved on beyond the issue of whether Hitler had these
24reports about the shootings on the Eastern Front, have you
26 MR IRVING:     It is not a vitally important point.

.   P-163

 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, leave on one side whether it is
 3 MR IRVING:     But I am certainly entitled to ask this witness who
 4has seen the reports whether he has seen any evidence that
 5they were shown to Hitler in detail, and I would certainly
 6have to look and see what I had said or m alleged to have
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     I just read it out.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But, Mr Rampton, he is in the middle of
11cross-examining. I think it is difficult for him to ----
12 MR RAMPTON:     I know that, but I am anxious to save time.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So I am but ----
14 MR RAMPTON:     I really am.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- I think and hope Mr Irving has moved
16beyond now whether Hitler knew through the reports of the
17shooting of Jews in the East.
18 MR RAMPTON:     I just which I had been able to find this a bit
19more quickly and then I could have saved some time, but
20never mind.
21 MR IRVING:     Then we would have missed out on some very
22important information which is that there is no evidence
23that Hitler saw the Einsatzgruppen report.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but you have to take the witness's
25answer that it is inconceivable that he did not know which
26would mean that if you did concede the point you were

.   P-164

 1right to have conceded it.
 2 MR IRVING:     My Lord, with the utmost respect to both yourself
 3and to the witness, the fact that something seems
 4inconceivable is not evidence or proof. It is interesting
 5and has to be put into the scale pans against which has to
 6be set the fact that all the evidence is there, the
 7documents are now in 55 years later and the evidence is
 8still not there.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know you have a lot of other things to do,
10but if you would be good enough to look at those passages
11overnight and perhaps indicate tomorrow morning what your
12considered stance is in relation to Hitler's
13knowledge ----
14 MR IRVING:     I will make a little written statement on it.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- of the shootings by the Einsatzgruppen.
16 MR RAMPTON:     I am a bit cautious about that, if I may say so,
17because what it involves, if Mr Irving should back track
18on what I have just read, or tried to back track,
19Professor Browning has now gone. I cannot bring him back
20without enormous expense and inconvenience from America to
21go through what he would have said if I had known that
22that position was challenged. It means that I have to
23rehearse my quite long cross-examination of Mr Irving on
24this question. I do not believe that in the interests of
25what one might call justice and proportionality that
26Mr Irving ought to be, if I am right about where I got him

.   P-165

<< 1-5191-192 >>