Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 24: Electronic Edition

Pages 156 - 160 of 192

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     No. Again if you had noticed that, you would have brought
 2it to our attention?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is not impossible they were shown to Hitler, but we
 5have no evidence, is that right?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I would phrase it much stronger. I would think it is
 7inconceivable that Hitler was not informed about these
 8reports because they were so widely circulated, and there
 9was a specific order on 1st August actually that materials
10should be shown to him.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     What period are you talking about now? Before December
121941 or after December 1941?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     We are talking about what?
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Einsatzgruppen reports where you say it is
15inconceivable that he was not shown them?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The reports started in June and ended in March '42, and
17I think this would apply to the whole period because this
18letter actually from Muller which says it should be shown
19to him is from the early stages, from 1st August 1941.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     The fact that the letter from Muller says that the Fuhrer
21wants to be shown them does not necessarily mean to say
22that it was acted upon?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, I assume that this was acted upon because, in
24general, orders by Muller were carried out as a very
25efficient head of the secret police. I think ----
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     One example is that I requested that I should be shown

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 1proof of where this document is and that has not been
 2acted upon either?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I think we have gone through this
 4enough. I hear what the witness says. He says it is
 5inconceivable that Hitler would not have known.
 6 MR IRVING:     One further question on the Muller document. The
 7subject of the Muller document is the provision of visual
 8materials, is it not?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. Well, it says, in particular, visual material, it
10does not include -- it does not exclude, of course, other
11material. It says [German - document not provided] so
12they should be continuously informed and, in particular,
13he is interested in visual material.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you read out what the topic line of the telegram is?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, the topic line is [German - document not provided].
16So the topic line is the visual material. But, of course,
17if you look into this, I mean, if you really look into the
18text here, [German - document not provided] So you can
19read it as it is an established fact that Hitler should be
20on a continuous basis provided with reports, and for this
21purpose he needs, in particular, with the material, so it
22could be that this refers to an older, to an older,
23earlier order, and this is kind of common practice,
24established practice.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     What were the tasks of the Einsatzgruppen that are
26referred to in this?

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, the tasks were basically the same, I would say, like
 2the [German]. So they were, in particular, I mean, they,
 3of course, had the explicit orders to execute enemies or
 4potential enemies of the Reichs, particularly including
 5the Jews, but also they had other tasks, in general, one
 6could say intelligence work, for instance, to trace
 7documents from the Communist Party, for instance. But
 8also you can see from the reports that they were dealing
 9with all kind of matters; they were dealing with the
10situation of the churches in the Soviet Union and with the
11food situation, and so on.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     So these reports were sometimes, what, nine or 10
13paragraphs long of which only one paragraph concerned the
14killing of Jews?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     One is, I think, in general, they had a kind of scheme and
16there is one paragraph concerning the fate of Jews and the
17other paragraphs were concerning other issues.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     So from the Muller telegram of 1st August 1941, is it
19plain what Hitler asked to be shown?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Visual material.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Everything, visual -- would there have been visual
22material about the killings?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, it refers to posters. We know that there were
24posters, for instance, demanding the Jews had to -- my
25English is running out.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Concentrate"?

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     --- concentrate somewhere a place. It refers to other
 2documents; photographs, there were definitely photographs
 3of mass executions. So from this, from this list of
 4things, I would say, yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen any photographs of mass executions in German
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I have not seen photographs of mass executions in German
 8files like the Ministry or something like that.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I take you now to page 62 and we will move forwards
10from there? This is the Goebbels diary entry of December
1112th 1941. We keep coming back against it again. The
12first two and a half lines on page 62: "As concerns the
13Jewish question, the Fuhrer is determined to make a clean
14sweep. He had prophesied to the Jews that if they once
15again brought about a world war they would experience
16their own extermination". That is Goebbels reporting
17Adolf Hitler, is it not, what he said in the speech?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     "This was not just an empty phrase. The World War is
20there, the extermination of Jewry must be the necessary
21consequence. This question must be seen without
22sentimentality. We are not here in order to have sympathy
23with the Jews", and so on. The rest of that paragraph
24could be Hitler speaking, but it could equally well be
25Dr Goebbels' gloss on it, could it not?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think it is -- I read this as a summary of Hitler's

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 1speech. If you compare the words of Goebbels, the way he
 2put it, if you compare it with the speech Frank gave four
 3years, four days later in Krakau, you can see that they
 4actually use the same words. They both refer to the fact
 5that one should not have compassion with them, that they
 6both refer to the prophecy. So I think this is a, I would
 7interpret it as a summary of Hitler's speech which is
 8quite detailed here.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     As you are a German, Dr Longerich, it is proper to put
10this question to you. Would not that second part of that
11paragraph be in the subjunctive if it was referring to
12Adolf Hitler?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, if one would assume that Goebbels always used the
14subjunctive when he refers to Hitler's speeches, but if
15you look into the Goebbels' diaries, we know that there is
16a mixture of the subjunctive and the present tense. So he
17did not use this in a -- it was not...
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Consistent?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Consistent, exactly, yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     If it had been subjective, then that would have been a
21clear clue that he was quoting Hitler, would it not?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It would be a clue, yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     So we are not sure either way?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     When you say subjunctive, you mean reported
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.

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