Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 24: Electronic Edition

Pages 151 - 155 of 192

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    I use the wrong date. It is definitely the 1st August.
 1should see this, that this actually was carried out,
 2because it could not be, it was impossible to hide it
 3before. On the contrary, it is exactly what he himself
 4demanded in these orders. It is about the destruction of
 5the Bolshevik Judao empire. That is what he wanted to
 6hear and that is why they presented him I think with these
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You say he ordered it and it happened?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
10 MR IRVING:     Now I have to ask supplementary questions on that
11of course. You say that these Einsatzgruppen reports had
12lengthy distribution lists. You mentioned 22 names on
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was the adjutants officer, the Fuhrer, one of them?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I did not say that 22, the Einsatzgruppen reports, we do
17not have complete distribution lists for every report and
18they vary from report to report. So I do not know.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well let me ask in general terms. On any of the
20distribution lists was there any of Adolf Hitler's
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     We do not have a complete set of distribution lists.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. On even one report then?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I have to look to the reports. I cannot say this.
25I found in report No. 128 the Party Chancellery, for
26instance, involved. If you want to argue that these

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 1operations of the Einsatzgruppen were hidden before Hitler
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Hidden from?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     From Hitler, sorry, then you must argue that Bormann was
 5part of this conspiracy because he received a copy, and he
 6would not be alarmed and go to Hitler.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry. I do not interrupt in the middle of
 8an answer -- at least I try not to. Again, I am a bit
 9troubled by all of this. I had the transcript reference
10some days ago, weeks ago, I have not got it at the
11moment. My recollection is that Mr Irving accepted in
12cross-examination, first that there was systematic mass
13shootings in the East by the Einsatzgruppen and, secondly,
14that they were approved by Hitler. So where are we going
15I ask myself?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I just check that because that thought
17had gone through my mind? I was hesitant about it.
18 MR RAMPTON:     It was early on in the case, almost probably the
19first week.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I will be able to tell you.
21 MR IRVING:     I think the answer to that is that there are
22killings and there are killings.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure that is the way it has been
25 MR RAMPTON:     I am not going to swear to it, but I think my
26recollection is more or less right.

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 1 MR IRVING:     I am going to come back to this question.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     I am trying to prevent Mr Irving coming back to
 3these questions, because I think it is a waste of the
 4court's time and my client's money, and this witness's
 5time too.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure, doing the best I can from my
 7own notes, that the latter part of what you have just said
 8is right. But, if anybody can check on the transcript, it
 9is quite an important point. I do not think if I may
10respectfully say, so on your say so I can stop this line
11of cross-examination. If you can pick up a reference?
12 MR RAMPTON:     No, of course not.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Your position now, Mr Irving, and I do not
14suggest it was different before, is that, yes, there were
15these mass shootings going on and there were documents
16floating around reporting them, but you do not accept that
17the reports ever got back to Hitler?
18 MR RAMPTON:     What I am quite certain about, my Lord ----
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I have an answer first? Is that right?
20 MR IRVING:     That is correct, my Lord. That is the position.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Although the one we do have for December 42
22says "vorgelegt", you still do not accept that Hitler saw
23it? That is what jogs my memory that I do not think it
24has ever been----
25 MR IRVING:     December 29th, 1942 yes, but that is something
26different which we will come to in due course.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is the same thing. It is a report of
 2shootings by the Einsatzgruppen.
 3 MR IRVING:     My Lord, if you feel I am wasting this witness's
 4time, I do hope that your Lordship will tell me.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What Mr Rampton is anxious about is that you
 6should not waste time by cross-examining on a point which
 7you have already conceded.
 8 MR IRVING:     I am very unlikely to do that, my Lord. It is my
 9time also.
10 MR RAMPTON:     I do not agree with that. Certainly it was
11conceded that report No. 51 of 29th December was probably
12seen by Hitler. That is out of the way. That has gone.
13That is 363,000 plus Jewish deaths by shooting.
14 MR IRVING:     I beg your pardon? That was conceded?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think that was conceded. We must
16get the references.
17 MR RAMPTON:     It was conceded that Hitler probably saw it.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. That is not my recollection.
19 MR RAMPTON:     I will have to check this and I have to do it
20quickly because otherwise we are going to be here----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Interrupt, if you would, again when you have
22the reference, but I think it is the sort of thing that we
23must have a reference on. Carry on, if you would,
24Mr Irving, unless and until you are interrupted.
25 MR IRVING:     Very briefly, from your knowledge, if you had seen
26an Einsatzgruppen report which had indicated in the

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 1distribution list that it had been shown to Hitler or to
 2Hitler's staff, or to his Adjutants, then you would have
 3mentioned it, would you not?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you just say geographically where was the Party
 6chancellery situated?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The Party Chancellery, the main office, was in Munich, but
 8they had of course a liaison office in Berlin, or wherever
 9Hitler was. Bormann was, after he became secretary of the
10Fuhrer, almost constantly a member of Hitler's personal
11entourage. He also made sure that the Party Chancellery
12was always represented in Hitler's entourage if he was not
13able to be present there.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have seen documents where Bormann is on
15the distribution list for these anmeldung?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I have found one. These distribution lists are not
17complete. In 128 it says among 55 copies there is one
18copy going to the Party Chancellery.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would that have been the Munich office?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think it only said Party Chancellery, and it says Party
21Chancellery in the main well ....
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Let me ask another specific follow up. On all the copies
23that you have seen, are there any handwritten annotations
24like "has been submitted to the Fuhrer" or anything like
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     As far as I have seen, no, there is nothing like that.

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