Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 24: Electronic Edition

Pages 146 - 150 of 192

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    Is a reasonable inference, reading that, that the people
 1no idea they were going to their deaths?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The Gestapo, you mean?
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     The people who sent this message.
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I do not know. I am really cautious to draw this
 5conclusion from this document. They are just saying the
 6Jews are coming and they are bringing money and tools and
 7food with them. I have to see if it survives the internal
 8correspondence of the Gestapo in Bremen. I would not
 9simply agree.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would not the least perverse interpretation to be put on
11this message be that it is an innocent message from the
12people in Bremen, saying we are sending a train load of a
13thousand people who are members of the chosen race, with
14all their food and appliances, and they are arriving at
15such and such a time, and so on? Any other interpretation
16is pure speculation.
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Every interpretation here is I think speculation. The
18money, for instance: Do you think this is money from the
19Gestapo in Bremen to buy food for the Jews in Riga?
20I would think the money is taken from the Jewish community
21and it goes into the pockets of the Gestapo. I see this
22document here and I cannot follow your line of
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not interpreting it. I am just reading what it says.
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. So it says that this train was sent to Riga and did
26they have money and food and tools on the trains? That is

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 1what I can read from the document.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I think, unless your Lordship has another question
 3to ask about these decodes, we can move on.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Not for me.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     We now move either onwards or backwards, whichever way you
 6look at it, to the 16th July 1941 conference between
 7Hitler and Rosenberg on the policing of the Eastern
 8territories. Did you use the diary of Otto Brottigan?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I used part of it which is printed in a German edition.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you not look at my original diary which is in the
11Institute of History? I donated the entire diary to the
12Institute of History.
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. I used the one which is printed and commented.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not sure how much of it is printed but the
15handwritten diary describes the atmosphere of rivalry
16between Rosenberg and Hitler, and Rosenberg coming out
17full of glee because he had got all that he wanted.
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is this typical jealous going on at the top level
20inside the hierarchy of Third Reich.
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     You agree that in that entire meeting of 16th July 1941
23the word "Jew" was not even mentioned? So it is not very
24important from our point of view, except for establishing
25the hierarchy in occupied Eastern Russia?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where is this in the report, or is it not?

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 1 MR IRVING:     Page 57, paragraph 15.7.
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I am not sure at the moment whether in the entire text the
 3name Jew is not mentioned, but I think for me the central
 4passage here is this expression of Hitler.
 5 MR IRVING:     Anybody who looks askance?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     How would you translate it?
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Anybody who looks askance can be shot.
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. I think this is a category which also would include
 9Jews, without particularly referring to them.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. You do agree that "der nur schief schaut" does not
11actually refer to somebody looking odd? It is actually
12somebody who is looking out of the corner of his eyes at
13you, or something like that? Anybody suspect?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Anybody suspect, yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     You summarize in paragraph 15.8, rather dangerously and
16adventurously in my view: "With the beginning of the
17massive murder of the Soviet civilian population in the
18summer of 1941, a stage was reached in which these
19statements and similar ones by Hitler could no longer be
20understood as general threats of violence"?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     So we are looking really between the lines, are we there?
23Again, we have nothing specific to point to.
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think, if you look back and look at Hitler's orders and
25his speeches in March 1941, and the fact that he demanded
26the annihilation or the extermination of the Jewish

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 1Bolshevik complex, if you look at the intelligentsia -- of
 2course this involved the killing of at least 10,000,
 3probably 100,000, people. Then I think one has to take
 4this into account if one looks at the way Hitler actually
 5used this terminology after these events. I do not know
 6whether we have actually reached here the stage where
 7I refer to the Einsatzgruppen and their reports back, and
 8the fact that these reports were widely circulated, we
 9have evidence that Hitler actually has seen them ----.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     I would be interested. Do you know off the top of your
11head or from your memory what is the evidence that Hitler
12actually read the Einsatzgruppen reports?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us find it in the report.
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I should be cautious here. We have this document from the
151st August 1941.
16 MR IRVING:     Muller document?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The Muller document, which I erroneously dated 2nd August,
1841, in this report. I cannot find it for the moment.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     That document does not show he was shown any?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, you are right.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Take this a little bit more slowly. Lets
22find your reference to the Muller document. Is that in
23your second report?
24 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
26 MS ROGERS:     Page 26 of 2.

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     You are right, one should be cautious. Is it 26?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you sure it is page 26.
 3 MR IRVING:     It is in the bundle of documents.
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I have it in the report 1, page 57, in the middle of 15.6.
 5 MR IRVING:     Page 50 of the bundle.
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I use the wrong date. It is definitely the 1st August.
 7It says here: "Dem Fuhrer soll von hier aus lfd Berichte
 8unber die Arbeit der Einsatzgruppen im Osten vorgelegt
 9weren". In English, the Fuhrer should be presented with
10continuous reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen in
11the East from here. So it is an intention, yes. But we
12have also other evidence that were not only the
13Eichnesmeldung, which were done on a daily basis, but
14there were also monthly and bimonthly reports about the
15activities of the Einsatzgruppen. We know that these
16reports were widely circulated. They had a distribution
17list with more than a hundred names or institutions on
18it. These monthly reports were widely circulated among
19the different ministries. For example, in the Foreign
20Ministry one of the monthly reports was shown to 22
21people. It is difficult, I think impossible, to argue
22that the result of the activities of the Einsatzgruppen
23could be hidden before anybody, because it was literally,
24I think hundreds of people actually in the official
25capacity have seen these reports. So I think that this is
26enough evidence to say that the intention that Hitler

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