Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 24: Electronic Edition

Pages 141 - 145 of 192

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    Has it been very widely noised around among German
 1these killings had to stop? I have never heard it
 3 MR RAMPTON:     That is a slightly tricky way of putting that
 4question. What does Mr Irving mean by on high?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is right. The problem is --
 6I think this is what Mr Rampton is really saying -- that
 7there are guidelines. We do not know quite what the
 8guidelines say. That is the difficulty. We cannot assume
 9that the guidelines say no killing, full stop.
10 MR IRVING:     I was tempted to say from the Fuhrer's
11headquarters, but then Mr Rampton would certainly have
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a separate point.
14 MR RAMPTON:     No. Himmler was probably somewhere in that
15complex at the Wolfsschanze when the telephone call of
1630th November was made. That is as far as one can push at
17what one might call wishful thinking.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I just ask the question? There obviously
19were guidelines knocking around somewhere?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Do you take the view that the guidelines said no Jews,
22German Jews or any other Jews, to be killed ever?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No.
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Or what?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I have not seen these guidelines.
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     No. Nobody has.

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think I should not speculate on the guidelines. As far
 2as I see this, the Holocaust emerged in different phases.
 3We have the Soviet Jews who were killed during the summer
 4first, and then the killing was extended in the autumn of
 541 to parts of Poland and to Serbia, then in the spring
 6and summer of 42 to other areas. So the German Jews at
 7this stage were deported into these ghettoes, and the
 8majority of them survived until the spring of 1941. So it
 9was not policy at this moment, I think, as far as I know,
10as far as I am able to reconstruct this, to kill
11systematically German Jews on arrival in the ghettoes in
12Minsk, Riga and Lodz. Here obviously Jeckeln, let me put
13it this way, made a mistake, which is quite difficult to
14say because it involved the death of 6,000 people. But it
15was obviously not the policy of the
16Reichssicherheitshauptamt to kill every German Jew who was
17deported in the East at this stage.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Was it the policy to kill some of them in so
19far as you can speculate?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     When this happened, as I said, there was no severe
21punishment for that. It was not seen as a major
22violation. It was seen as a minor incident.
23 MR IRVING:     That is a different matter, whether it was
24punishable or not. Can I ask you to look back at page 122
25of that bundle of German documents, the same one? It is
26another decode.

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now this one you may also have seen in view of the fact
 3that I found it in the PRO and brought it to the attention
 4of the court. It concerns the shipment of train loads of
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Where are we?
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 122 of the bundle of documents. It concerns whether
 8there was a homicidal intention already in store for the
 9train loads of Jews being sent out of Germany. This is a
10train load of Jews. It is a telegram. I will ask you
11just to read it first and then I will ask you some
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This is the first train to Kovno. The people were all
14killed in Kovno.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Thank you for telling us. That is very interesting to
16know that. This is the train load on November 17th 1941,
176.25 p.m., the transport train number DO, presumably that
18is Deutschland Ost, 26th, has left Berlin for Kovno with
19944 Jews on board, details of what the transport escort
20is. Then it says the transport has been provided with
213,000 kilograms of bread, 27 hundred kilograms of flour,
22and various other things, which indicates that they were
23going to have enough food for the journey and some.
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is another telegram, I am not sure if it is in this
26bundle or not, Miss Rogers will know, which actually says

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 1they are going to be taking their Gerat with them.
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Tools.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Their tools or appliances?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does that imply they anticipated the people sending them,
 6anticipated they were going to be going to a new life, if
 7I can put it that way?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We had this this morning, you got the answer
 9you wanted. They were lured into thinking that they were
10going to a new life in the East.
11 MR IRVING:     Very well, but am I right now, Dr Longerich, you
12said that this particular train load, which was referred
13to here, which I did not know, I have to confess, ended up
14being murdered?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The first five trains to Riga were diverted to Kovno and
16these are the trains where the people were killed, and the
17first train to Riga as well. If I am not completely
18mistaken, I am pretty sure the people on this train were
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     So would this indicate a totally chaotic situation? The
21people in Germany who were sending them out, assume they
22are going to need tools and bread for a new life, whereas
23the people who received them, bumped them off as they
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Again, the tools and the food was provided by the Jewish

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is neither here nor there, is it, really?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It was provided by the Jewish communities, so the Jewish
 3communities were assuming that, as a kind of solidarity
 4with the people who were deported, they had to provide
 5them with enough food and tools to survive the first days
 6and maybe to build up new homes. I cannot draw from the
 7fact that these trains were provided with food and tools,
 8I am not able to draw any conclusions as far as the
 9motives and aims of the Gestapo was concerned. It refers
10to the Jewish communities in Germany, what they thought it
11was appropriate to do.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but ----
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The SS or the police did not provide the trains with food
14from their own stocks.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I now take you to page 124. That is the other
16message I was referring to, where they are being sent with
17the food and the money and the appliances.
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is a message from the SS, is it not, in Bremen to the
20commander of the police in Riga, saying, we are sending
21all these people with this food and with these appliances?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is a reasonable inference, reading that, that the people
24in Bremen assumed that they were not just carrying all
25this stuff as camouflage, because they were going to be
26bumped off when they got there? The people in Bremen had

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