Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 24: Electronic Edition

Pages 131 - 135 of 192

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    "All" also relates to the last line, "All Jews in Party
 1this "all" is the next line which you find on page 7 and
 2"other, and all other radical elements including", the
 3most important word is I think the "etc." in the end,
 4which says, "Well, this is not a definite list of the
 5people we are going to kill". You know, you actually, you
 6know, can add to the list. You can add saboteurs,
 7propagandists, snipers, assassins and agitators, others
 8who fall into this category.
 9 MR IRVING:     But am I right in saying ----
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     My interpretation of this order is that this is a kind of
11open, very general order which appeals to the initiative
12of the men in the field. They can actually go and extend
13the killings if they find it appropriate, if it is
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     An umbrella order?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Sorry?
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is a kind of umbrella order?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. Also, there is no indication in this order who
19actually is to be spared. It does not say, for instance,
20it is not allowed to shoot women.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why should it not be allowed to shoot women?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, it is not said in this order here.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     If there is a woman kommissar she was going to be spared,
24or a woman sniper?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Then would assume that this is a Jew in party or state
26function, or it is one of the propagandists, saboteurs

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 1snipers, and so on. So I think this is not ----
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Dr Longerich, I really want to come to this July 2nd
 3document tomorrow when we deal with your second report,
 4but I do draw attention to your footnote there, the second
 5line from the bottom, the only Jews who are actually
 6included in that are the Jews in party and state positions
 7who are on the shooting list.
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, and the word "etc." in the end, I think in my
 9interpretation ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     That could mean anything. It could mean the milkmen and
11everybody else, could it not?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, everybody else, everybody Jew or non-Jew who was
13suspicious from the point of view of the Nazis, the
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I now take you back to page 57, where we are looking
16at the Einsatzgruppen?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     I take it from your footnote that you have not made any
19use of the police decodes that are in the Public Record
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I have looked at the police decodes, both in the
22collection here and also at the collection in Washington.
23I have seen several hundred of them, not more.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Since you wrote this report or before that?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I saw the Washington decodes about two years ago and the
26ones here after I finished the report, I think.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Just a subsidiary question: How would you rate the
 2decodes as a source? Are they really pure gold, untouched
 3and unimpeachable integrity as a source?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     In the sense that they are authentic?
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Authentic and likely to contain something approximating to
 6the truth?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     We have actually the chance in some cases to complete the
 8deciphers with the German originals in this case.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Compare them?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Sorry, compare them, and in this case it is clear that
11they are authentic. The problem with the deciphers is
12that they are relating to the order police, which is one
13branch of the German police. A second problem is that the
14German would use, as far as I am aware, a different code
15for the highest class of classified documents. They would
16not use this code. The Einsatzgruppen would not send
17their messages through the order police system. It is
18clear from one of the deciphers from September that the
19Germans were aware of the danger that the codes could be
20broken and the Deluger sent an order to say what actually
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Keep the figures up or something?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Be quite cautious here what you are sending. Also, we do
24not know how comprehensive actually the work of the
25deciphers were. Is this everything they got? Is this the
26whole communication of the German police? So I think we

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 1will spend, as historians always spend, a lot of time
 2actually to assessing this document and to find out to
 3which extent it will help us to understand the killings
 4better than we did before.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have to take up two points. First of all, you say that
 6because it is the Ordnungs Polizei, the order police, it
 7does not contain a high level of material, but we have
 8seen in this courtroom messages from Himmler to Jeckeln,
 9and that is of course at the very highest level, is it
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The high SS police leader would use the communication
12system of the order police. That is possible, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you accept, having spent some time looking at these
14decodes, that they are a pretty random selection, that
15they are not methodologically skewed in any way? Although
16it is not 100 per cent, the volume of documents that has
17been left for us to look at is a random collection of many
18hundreds of thousands of items?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I am not sure what the numbers -- what I am trying to say
20is, if you look at the deciphers, you cannot be sure that
21the deciphers contain the whole radio communication
22between, let us say, Himmler and Jeckeln, for instance.
23I have no way to find out how comprehensive and how
24representative this collection is. But of course it adds
25to our knowledge.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. You did not have those, just to make this quite

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 1plain, at your disposal when you wrote this report?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I looked into some of the Washington files.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Washington files are not as complete as the British
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, exactly.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I had the Washington files in front of me when I wrote the
 8report, and I did not include them here because what I
 9have seen in Washington for me -- for instance, I did not
10find in Washington the Himmler Jeckeln correspondence and
11I did not spend enough time probably on it, but there is
12nothing in it which actually I thought was valuable enough
13to include it into the report.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, could you put, really for my
15benefit as much as anybody else's, to Dr Longerich what it
16is you say about the decodes that is significant.
17 MR IRVING:     I am just about to come to that very point, my
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Good.
20 MR IRVING:     You say you were not at that time familiar with the
21Himmler and Jeckeln decodes?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you in the meantime had a chance to look at them?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am referring here to the decodes of November 30th, the
26telephone call from Himmler to Heydrich on November 30th,

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