Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 24: Electronic Edition

Pages 121 - 125 of 192

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    Yes, but it says if you take the full, if you look at the
 1auszutragenden Kampf zweier entgegengesetzter politischer
 2Systeme ergeben", this is in English "These special
 3responsibilities arise from the ultimate decisive struggle
 4between two opposing political systems". So it is not
 5about just two armies fighting against each other. It is
 6actually two political systems and the idea here is to
 7completely, well ----
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     National socialism, on the one hand, and Bolshevism on the
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think somebody once said the child with most -isms is
12the -ists. So they are dealing here with the Bolsheviks
13or the Bolshevists and the National Socialists rather than
14the Jews as such?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, but from the context it becomes quite clear that in
16the views of the National Socialist, you cannot separate
17Bolshevism from Jewry, so it is a kind of, it is quite
18clear it is one of the main elements of the National
19Socialist ideology that Bolshevism is in a way a kind of
20invention of the Jews, of all Jewry, in order to conquer
21world dominion, I think. This is something that you
22cannot separate here from this.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Sure enough in the next paragraph it spells out what the
24special responsibilities are. They are going to be
25bumping of all the Bolshevik Chieftains and Commissarts?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     I agree with that. That is quite obviously contained in
 2the documents. We now go on the following page to page 57
 3to the massacres executed by the four Einsatzgruppen?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But can I just be clear about that? Forgive
 6me. The documents we have just been looking at, four of
 7them, 3rd March onwards?
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Do you regard those as being preliminary to the setting up
10of the Einsatzgruppen?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, I think one has to bear in mind that this is, you
12know, this is preparation of a racist war of
13extermination. So the result of the speeches and of these
14instructions are certain guidelines which are given to the
15troops. This is the Commissart order, the order to kill
16all Communist Commissarts, and this is what was called
17here the guidelines for special areas. And then there is
18the jurisdiction decree which says, basically, that every
19German officer is entitled to take retaliation measures on
20the spot, and they are the guidelines for the conduct of
21the troops in Russia.
22     So the whole of it has to be seen as a whole set
23of regulations and guidelines, which I think can be
24described as a kind of package for the racist war of
25extermination and Hitler is intimately involved in the
26preparation of this.

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 1 MR IRVING:     As a what for the racist war?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Package".
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     A kind of package of set of documents which actually ----
 4 MR IRVING:     You describe them as the prerequisites ----
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, exactly.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- which does not necessarily mean that the one flowed
 7from the other. The racist war of extermination would not
 8have been possible without these prerequisites, but that
 9does not necessarily mean that this was anticipated or
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, I think it is quite clear from the documents that
12this war, you know, this racist war, is planned from at
13least March 1941 onwards and Hitler is playing an active
14role in the preparations of those guidelines.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Dr Longerich, if you are going to put it like that, I
16think you ought to point us to the passage of the March
17documents on which you are relying.
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Am I right, my Lord, that he should ----
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, you are, but I do not want to assume too
21much, but 3rd March refers to the establishment of
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, it is an instruction from Hitler to Jodl to actually
24rephrase the guidelines, to be more radical in those
25guidelines. So it gives him a kind of idea of what he
26wants, and he says, this is the key sentence, "The Jewish

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 1Bolshevik intelligentsia must be eliminated". Then they
 2are going on and revising these guidelines, and in end it
 3says in here that there is in the operational area of the
 4Army, the Reichsfuhrer SS special duties, he has to carry
 5out and these duties relates to the fight between
 6Bolshevism and National socialism.
 7     So there is a specific political racist, I would
 8say, element in here. It is not just a preparation of,
 9let us say, a normal war between nations or armies.
10 MR IRVING:     Racist or ideological?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Both. You cannot separate that. You cannot separate
12anti-Semitism from the anti-Communism. This is one thing.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     But if I narrow it down, these actual documents before us
14refer only to the leadership, the intelligentsia.
15Everything beyond that is extrapolation by yourself, is it
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I do not know what the "Sonderaufgaben im Auftrage des
18Fuhrers" are. There is no -- the document does not give
19us any explanation for that. It is not -- the documents
20refer to leaders and to special tasks "im Auftrage des
21Fuhrers", "on behalf of the Fuhrer", so I do not know what
22this actually, I mean, because I was not there and we do
23not have a document about this, I do not know what this
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is the document of March 13th on page 56, is that

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. "Sonderaufgaben", special tasks on behalf of the, by
 2order of the Fuhrer for the preparation, and so on, and so
 3I do not know what this really, how far ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it likely that Himmler went to see Hitler a bit jealous
 5because the Army and the Air Force and the Navy had been
 6given all these great tasks for this great ideological
 7campaign in the East and Himmler has been to see Hitler
 8and said, "Mein Fuhrer, I want jobs too. What are you
 9going to give me?" and Hitler says to him, "Well, you are
10going to do this and you are going to do that. Your job
11is in the rear area, mopping up the partisans, holding
12down the population, securing the transport routes"?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No. What happens is that I think the initiative came from
14Hitler because he is the one who is revising, first of
15all, the instruction, the guidelines by giving Jodl this
16instruction. So he is the one who thinks that the Army is
17not radical enough about, the Army has not completely
18understood the task ahead of them.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     The ideological nature?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The ideological was, so he is giving this instruction.
21Then in the end it is ended in these guidelines where
22these special tasks are mentioned.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Dr Longerich, you are interested in the special tasks, are
24you not? We do not know what they are, but can I remind
25you of the meeting after Barbarossa began on July 16th
261941 where Himmler is given special tasks, is he not?

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