Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 24: Electronic Edition

Pages 111 - 115 of 192

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    I have said this already. I think in the
 1with that?
 2 MR RAMPTON:     No, I do not. Reichskristallnacht is mentioned in
 3passing only in the first part of Dr Longerich's report.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the same applies really to the
 5shooting by the Einsatzgruppen.
 6 MR IRVING:     To much else, which is not a matter of great
 7contention between us.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is true.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     I think it has gone really as an issue.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So really I think we are looking towards the
1140s in terms of pagination.
12 MR IRVING:     We are making rapid progress. For the remaining
13three minutes I will just have a quick look at page, 45
14please. On May 25th 1940 Himmler did put this document to
15Hitler on the plans for the East?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was this again Plan Ost or was that another document?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This was the future of the Frentfurgischer, as it was
19called in the text, the alien people.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does not Himmler in this document say words to the effect
21that we cannot do what the Russians do, we cannot just
22liquidate them?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, the quote here is: "The Bolshevist methods of
24physically extirpation (Ausrottung) of a people because of
25inner conviction, as un-German and impossible". So he is
26distancing himself from ausrottung. In the same text he

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 1says: "I hope to see that by means of the possibility of a
 2large emigration of all Jews to Africa or to some other
 3colony - that the concept of Jew will be fully
 4extinguished". So I think we have take these
 5two sentences into account. Distinguished but not
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     I just wanted to look at the fact that the word ausrottung
 8in that document does not by itself mean killing, because
 9Himmler had to add the word "physical" in font of it, did
10he not, so going to physically ausrottung them?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Of course that is a possible interpretation, but sometimes
12in a document you make your position very clear by
13actually repeating the same meaning and adjective.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is added emphasis, is it?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, you have to have a subject but you also add an
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     To make it unmistakable?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, exactly.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Because otherwise it could be mistook.
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, and also probably you want to strengthen your point.
21People tend to repeat themselves. That is quite a common
22experience. If in the same document you make the same
23point twice or three times, it does not always, I think
24one cannot -- well, I stop here. Sorry.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Just like Adolf Hitler in that November 10th 1938 speech
26using the phrase "we do not need them"? He says it twice

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 1in one sentence.
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     It does not add anything really?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, for example.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     I see a smile from his Lordship. That was not the point
 6I was hoping to make there. I would hate to go down just
 7on that one sentence. That is the reason. Page 46 just
 8for one minute. The Madagascar plan was quite feasible,
 9was it not?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     In which sense feasible?
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     It could have housed them. The island is big enough.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The relevant question is they thought it was
13feasible? Whether they were right or not may not be here
14or there.
15 MR IRVING:     I was going to ask the witness. He is rather
16dismissive of the plan.
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     In which sense feasible? You mean to provide a place
18where 4 million Jews could have a happy life? In this
19sense feasible?
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Happier life.
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Or feasible in the sense of an SS police state, so to say
22a big prison, with a high death rate? In this sense
23I would say, yes, it was feasible. We have contemporary
24examinations about this problem. For instance, the Polish
25Jewish Commission which was sent to Madagascar in 37, they
26came back with a recommendation that, as one member put

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 1it, Madagascar would offer a place for about 50 to 75,000
 2people. The Jewish members of this Commission did not
 3agree. They said 2,000 probably. So this is contemporary
 4evidence we have. I would say clearly that I doubt that 4
 5million Jews would have the chance to survive this, if
 6I may say, excursion to Madagascar in 1940.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Dr Longerich, one final question before the adjournment.
 8Are you aware that the population in Madagascar has
 9increased from about 2 million to 13 million over the
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I looked it up because this was always said. 4 million in
1230s to 30 million indeed in the 1990s, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     So that kind of population could have been absorbed?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, within 50 years, with an infrastructure and so on, of
15course. Experience shows that.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Two o'clock.
17 (Luncheon Adjournment)
18(2.00 p.m.)
19 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, can I hand in my little note on the
20inadmissibility of expert witness statements?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much -- yes, please.
22 MR RAMPTON:     I say no more about it. Yes.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, Mr Irving?
24 MR IRVING:     Thank you. (To the witness): Dr Longerich, we had
25reached the middle of 1941 roughly and I think I am right
26in summarizing that there is no evidence up to 1941, the

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 1middle of 1941, of any directives by Hitler to exterminate
 2Jews, no order for a systematic extermination of the Jews
 3that you are aware of by the middle of 1941?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, if it comes to the preparation of Barbarossa,
 5I would not agree. Before that -- at the moment I cannot
 6-- probably you are right, I cannot recall something like
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, shall we have a look at the directives issued in May
 91941 now?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. Well, by the way, no, I have to correct myself,
11there is no -- we do not have a written, a written
12statement by Hitler signed by Hitler, you know, that the
13Jews have to be killed. This is something we do not have.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     On page 55 of your report, 15.1, you begin by saying: "In
15the course of the preparations for the racist war of
16extermination against the Soviet Union", that is rather
17colourful language, is it not?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, this is actually a language which is commonly used
19by historians to describe the specific nature of this war.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. It is not really material here except that it goes
21to your state of mind, I suppose, but are you not aware
22that there is a body of historical opinion on the other
23side now which says that to a certain extent,
24notwithstanding that Hitler had always wanted to fight the
25Soviet Union, by June 1941 it also had a preventive

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