Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 24: Electronic Edition

Pages 106 - 110 of 192

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    If you had read the Goebbels diaries right through,
 1the suggestions to whom, or who was just listening?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Again, I would prefer to look then at certain
 3passages. As a general view I think my interpretation is
 4that there was a high degree of anti-Semitic consensus
 5between Hitler and Goebbels, and of course Goebbels in his
 6diaries, one of the motivations, motives, why Goebbels
 7wrote the diaries is that he wanted to show, the diaries
 8should present him as a very active energetic person. So
 9of course, he is in a way the actor, and others actually
10are reacting to him. My general impression is that there
11was an anti-Semitic consensus among them.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
13 MR IRVING:     Can we now go to page 12 of your report, paragraph
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     In general terms you are saying that, between the outbreak
17of war in summer 1939 and the middle of 1941, the Nazis
18were look for a territorial solution to the Jewish
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this commonly accepted or do most historians now accept
22that there was no homicidal plan?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This is accepted, but I made a little comment there at the
24end, and I said, well, actually, if you look at the
25so-called territorial solution, one should actually say,
26and this is my argument, that this increasingly offers a

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 1perspective of the physical end of the Jews in Europe. So
 2I think the territorial solution, it was not meant that
 3the Jews should actually come back from this reservation
 4or whatever they planned, and they should stay there for
 5300 years. I think, if you look seriously at this
 6territorial solution, these plans had clearly a genocidal
 7implication, but they were still plans. They were not
 8carried out.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     So that, although they were talking in terms of geography
10and moving them out beyond the pale, even then you suspect
11that they would really like to kill them? They were
12thinking in terms of killing? You want to have it both
13ways, really?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I would come back to this phrase there is obviously a
15strong genocidal element in those plans, so they were
16considering among themselves the question how and whether
17the Jews would survive or they would not survive.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you talking about the European Jews here or the
19Russian Jews?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I am talking about the European Jews.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     But there is no actual document which indicates a
22homicidal intent. It is just that your feeling is they
23were talking geography but thinking in terms of bullets?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I could expand on that. There are two arguments. First
25of all, if you look at the plans themselves, at the
26comments they made on the plans, I think you can come to

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 1the conclusion that these so-called reservations would not
 2offer sufficient means for existence to the Jews. On the
 3other hand, I collected quite a number of comments from
 4top Nazis, which actually made quite clear from the
 5context that what they envisaged was that the Jews, the
 6Jewry, Judentung, the Jews would actually not survive in
 7the end this deportation to reservations.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     They hoped they would perish in the process?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     They would perish and put to death by a combination of
10diseases, epidemics, simply insufficient means for
11survival, hard labour and things like that.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Dr Longerich, you appreciate there is a difference in
13intent there, just saying, "I want them to get out and who
14cares what happens to them when they are out"?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is one thing, but that is not quite the same as
17saying a homicidal intent?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. I think that is to say very short, that is the
19difference between the idea to let them perish out there
20and to immediately kill them by executions or gas and so
21on. That is the difference.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not want to go right back to the 1920s, but you do
23rely in part on Mein Kampf, do you not?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, of course.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have a copy of Mein Kampf here, one of these little
26things you collect over the years, given to me. I hasten

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 1to add I have never read it. Am I right in saying that
 2Adolf Hitler was not the only person whose hand is to be
 3seen in Mein Kampf? In fact a number of other people
 4wrote it with him, Rudolf Hess and others?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I should say I read the book. I think it is a very
 6interesting book. One should read it. Hitler dictated it
 7to Hess. It is unclear. Some historians would argue that
 8actually he helped to improve in a way the text, but
 9I think the fact that Hitler's name is on the book
10indicates that he is responsible for every word in the
11book. I think also one recognizes of course his thoughts
12in the text.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you see a direct line then between what Adolf Hitler
14put his name to in Mein Kampf in 1923 or 1924 and what
15subsequently happened 20 years later?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No. I think the policy developed gradually, but we have
17to take the fact into account that Hitler made very
18radical anti-Semitic statements as soon as the mid 20s.
19We cannot overlook this fact.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     He made anti-Semitic statements in it?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, Mein Kampf. He spoke about putting 12 to 15,000 of
22these people to gas and so on.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     They could be held under gas?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. He did not say that he was intending to kill
25European Jews, but he made some very, very interesting
26statements concerning the fate of the Jews.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, this is only a suggestion. It
 2seems me that the key phase really is when talk moved, as
 3Dr Longerich says it did, from deportation to Madagascar
 4or wherever else ----
 5 MR IRVING:     1941 is the key year.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, exactly. Do you think that is where
 7your quarrel with Dr Longerich really starts, is it not?
 8 MR IRVING:     This is absolutely true and that is why your
 9Lordship will see that I am rapidly leafing through the
10pages which are heavily annotated by me, the
11Reichskristallnacht and so on.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know it is a temptation, but if you can
13resist the temptation.
14 MR IRVING:     In the meantime we have dealt with the
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you have.
17 MR IRVING:     I do not know what the law is here. If I do not
18traverse these matters here in court ----
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have said this already. I think in the
20context of this case, if you have already cross-examined
21another expert on a particular topic, and you have
22certainly cross-examined Professor Evans on Kristallnacht,
23that is quite sufficient, unless Mr Rampton wants to
24persuade me otherwise, by way of putting your case, and
25you certainly do not need top traverse the same ground
26again with Dr Longerich. Mr Rampton, you do not disagree

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