Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 96 - 100 of 237

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    Your experts have had total access to my records,
 1including of course those particular interrogation
 2reports, have they not, in my papers in Munich?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did they look at those interrogations, do you think?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would have to check, but I do not see what the relevance
 6of that question is. I do not think we used them, put it
 7like that.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you accept that I used them in my books?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that, if I had statements by members of Hitler's
11private staff, not only questioned by me but questioned by
12others and by people far cleverer than myself, all of whom
13elicited precisely the same information that the Holocaust
14was never discussed by Hitler or at Hitler's headquarters,
15is that not a significance?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, there are a number of problems there. First of all,
17what some of these say is that Hitler never discussed the
18concentration camps, and that is true. What I say in my
19report is that he used a generalized language of racism,
20exterminatory racism, towards the Jews. You can read that
21in his table talks and in the Goebbels diaries, but he did
22not go into any details. That does seem to be the case on
23reading through the table talk. He did not talk in any
24detail about gas chambers in Auschwitz or the actual
25processes. The second thing to say is of course that ----
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     These are all Nazis?

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Will you let him finish?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. A lot of these people of course were concerned to
 3exculpate themselves, and therefore were being very
 4cautious in what they admitted about what Hitler did or
 5did not say to them. The third thing to say is of course
 6the fact that Hitler did not talk about these things does
 7not mean that he did not know about them, and a number of
 8his entourage who said that Hitler did not talk about the
 9extermination of Jews went on to say that they thought it
10was very clear that he did actually know about it.
11 MR IRVING:     Is there even one member of Hitler's staff who has
12stated from absolute certainty that Hitler had discussed
13this to your knowledge?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     All right. We shall have to go through the whole section
15on the Adjutants in that case which I thought we were not
16going to do. .
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I would be interested, though, if you could
18tell me and, if you cannot do it from memory, have a quick
19glance at your report, who are the members of the
20entourage who you say believed that Hitler did know about
21the extermination? You do not have to go into the detail
22of it, unless Mr Irving wants to ask you questions.
23 MR IRVING:     I will ask about specific people.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did Otto Gunscher make a statement?
26 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry, I do not think this is a satisfactory

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 1way of dealing with it. Because I had said that I was not
 2any longer much interested in the Adjutants, I dare say
 3Professor Evans has not committed them all to memory over
 4the weekend. I do not know because I have not spoken to
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have been repeatedly assured that this was going to be
 7ditched so I have not.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I do think it right that, if he is going to answer
 9this perfectly proper question, he should be given time to
10read the adjutants section of the report, or skim it
11anyway, so that he can bring it back to mind.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. We have all got time pressure slightly
13in mind. I therefore was inviting him just for my
14reference, then I could read about it later, to identify
15the names of some of those.
16 MR IRVING:     It is purely the fact that Otto Gunscher, who
17I think is the last surviving Hitler adjutant, told my
18Dusseldorf lawyer five days ago that the first he heard of
19it was when he was in the Luganka in Moscow. Although he
20has made statements differing from that, he now accepts
21that the first he heard of it was when he was in Russian
22captivity, the first he heard specifically of the
23Holocaust and of Auschwitz. He was with Hitler from 1936
24until literally he was the man who burned Hitler's body.
25I have a letter from my Dusseldorf lawyer to that effect
26reporting this conversation.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is up to you, Professor Evans. Would you
 2rather come back to this, maybe at 2 o'clock?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think I would, my Lord, yes.
 4 MR IRVING:     If we have time.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If we have time. It has caught me on the hop, I am
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is totally understandable. Do you mind
 8moving on, Mr Irving?
 9 MR IRVING:     Yes. Page 421, Professor Evans.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This, as you realize, has been superseded by my letter of
1110th January.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Paragraph 4?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     I was just going to comment that you are effectively going
15to leave the debate to Longerich.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have withdrawn that page.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are hoping that Professor Longerich is going to cure
18that little snag?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have withdrawn that page and the previous page, and the
20top half of the following page and replaced them with a
21new section, which is on pages 8 to 12 of my letter of the
2210th January.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 425, I am hoping this is going to take less than 15
24seconds, Magnus Brach (?) says that the Madagascar plan
25was a pure hypocrisy, a verbal smoke screen born out of
26thought games. I am looking at the phrase "thought games",

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 1would you agree that this is the same as saying it is a
 2pipe dream?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He is not -- we are not talking about the Madagascar plan,
 4but about the Hitler table talk of the 24th July
 5mentioning the Madagascar plan, when, as we know, Hitler
 6had long since abandoned it. He says "pure hypocrisy",
 7I had better give the whole quote. "The talk on the 25th
 8July by Hitler about sending the Jews to Madagascar was
 9pure hypocrisy, at best a verbal smoke screen of Hitler's
10born out of thought games, a smoke screen with which he
11took up a known topic which had also once been the subject
12of concrete planning in order not to call the measures
13which are actually going on against the Jews by their
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 426, paragraph 1, which is the lower paragraph 1 on
16the page, an examination of?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     I may have a mistake here. I have a note here, you say
19that I omit the reference when in fact --
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, if you do not, we should look at it.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It must be a different page or something.
22 MR IRVING:     Must be looking at a different page. In fact, I
23have commented, it is, in fact, printed in full. Where am
24I accused of omitting a reference? But let us move on. In
25other words --
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Take your time, do not rush, Mr Irving.

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