Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 91 - 95 of 237

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    Does not even the most incompetent historian know that the
 11940 and it was issued as a direct result of the famous
 2Mechelin incident when a German plane landed carrying
 3secret documents?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Provide me with documentation, Mr Irving.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Can we just to try and the document?
 6 MR IRVING:     Probably one of most famous orders Hitler ever
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I am sure Mr Irving is right about everything but
 9I wish he would give me a moment to try and the document.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have you got document 112?
11 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. It is file H1 (ix) and it is page 238. We
12will provide your Lordship, and somebody will do it for
13the witness.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could I have a copy, please?
15 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Could I have a copy too?
17 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. I will pass this up.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     238?
19 MR RAMPTON:     238 is a stamped page number.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, on the bottom.
21 MR RAMPTON:     The right hand corner is said to be document 112.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have you got this, Mr Irving?
23 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I know all about Hitler's top secret order
24and I do not need to see this thing. This is a subsequent
25reissue of it.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is a reissue of the same document, is it,

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 1Mr Irving?
 2 MR IRVING:     That I do not know, my Lord. The original January
 311th 1940 version says nobody under any circumstances who
 4has no need to know is to be informed of any secret
 5operation. It is a basic need to know document on which a
 6lot of other governments have modelled their own secrecy
 7laws since then.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is where I got it from.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you have never heard of the original basic order No. 1
10which was issued on January 11th 1940? I thought every
11historian knew of it.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you can point me to a copy of it, I am quite happy to
13accept your dating. It does not really affect what I say
14at all.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     The question is: You do not know of the January 1940 one?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I found it here. I quoted it as the date given here.
17I do not see what the point is you are trying to make,
18Mr Irving.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Nor do I.
20 MR IRVING:     The point I am trying to make is, firstly, once
21again there appear to be gaps in this expert witness's
22knowledge of the Third Reich.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sure there are gaps even in your knowledge of the
24Third Reich, Mr Irving.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Secondly, the inference which you invited the reader to
26draw from your expert report, that paragraph at the top of

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 1417, that there was some sinister connection between the
 2issue of the order and the Final Solution evaporates?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not read it as saying that so I think we
 4can move on.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not draw that inference at all. That is just reading
 6far more into there than is actually there.
 7 MR IRVING:     Good. Line 5, you quote Henry Picker as saying,
 8"Over state secrets Hitler was totally uncommunicative.
 9He told us nothing in his table talk about the
10extermination of the Jews in the concentration camps".
11Does this not render nugatory every clever translation you
12have made of "Ausrottung" and "vernichtung" in the table
13talks up to this point and beyond?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. I do not recall any mention of the concentration
16 MR IRVING:     No, the "Ausrottung" and the "vernichtung"?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, we are talking about the concentration camps here.
18I do not see any mention in the table talk of the
19concentration camps. That is what he is talking about
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you believe Henry Picker is being clever when he is
22saying, "OK, he told us about all the other extermination
23of the Jews going on but not about what was going on in
24the concentration camps"?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is what he is saying. He says, "he told us nothing in
26his table talk about the extermination of the Jews in the

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 1concentration camps." It may be clever or not, I think it
 2is probably true. What he goes on to say his (Hitler's)
 3conversations nevertheless revealed his deep rooted and
 4fanatical hatred for all other races. That I think is
 5also a true observation.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     What about Adolf Hitler's other private staff, his
 7stenographers, the people who took down every word he
 8spoke from September 1942 onwards, people like that, the
 9Adjutants, the private secretaries?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Oh goodness. You want to go all through all the whole
11section on the Adjutants now?
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not, but what I am going to draw your attention to is
13page 36 of the little bundle I gave you and invite you to
14look briefly at pages 39 and 40. Just run your eye over
15that letter from a lawyer to me dated 1974, when I was
16writing Hitler's War. He says that he carried out
17interrogations of all Hitler's Adjutants, stenographers
18and people like that in American captivity, and he has all
19their statements, and what should he do with them, if my
20memory of the letter is correct.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you go back now to page 36, in the meantime he has now
23given them to me and I am listing them. That is a little
24index of them.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 37 shows that I, like a total idiot, give them to the

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 1archives in Germany, where I can no longer get them now.
 2Is that right?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     I can only draw your attention therefore to the summary in
 5this listing. If you look down the page numbers on the
 6right of that page 36, there is a statement by Ludvig
 7Krieger, who was one of Hitler's stenographers, his
 8extraordinary impression of Hitler, and Hitler never
 9mentioned the Holocaust of Jews. Right?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you see that one?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, without actually seeing the written statement, of
13course we do not know whether that summary of it and
14account of it is correct.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Ah. We will come to that.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What exactly he means by that is unclear.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you look at the item listed as page 23, Hitler never
18discuss concentration camps, the statement of another
19stenographer, Heinz Bucholz ----
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Page 23? Down the list?
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, down the list?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think it is true he did not discuss concentration
24camps. I do not think one sees the word "Auschwitz"
25anywhere in the Hitler table talks.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     

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