Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 86 - 90 of 237

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the point Mr Irving is making is that
 2going and not going, as it were, are being contrasted.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which suggests Ausrottung is----
 5 MR IRVING:     Going voluntarily and not going voluntarily.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     How he thinks that Jews could have gone voluntarily at
 8this point, I really do not know.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did large numbers of Jews leave Germany more or less
10voluntarily between 1938 and the end of 1939?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, driven out by the enormous hostility of the Nazi
12regime, particularly in the Reichskristallnacht.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Were they carried to the port or the airport and dumped on
14a plane?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, they made the decision that life was unbearable in
16Germany and they left.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is 1942, that is the point.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is 1942.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us move on. I think we have had enough
20of that particular bit of table talk.
21 MR IRVING:     Page 416, in paragraph 22 and paragraph 1, I am
22sorry, the top paragraph of that page, what you are
23effectively saying is that the Nazis are using a code, are
24they not? They are using special words when in fact they
25mean something different.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does not the use of a code presuppose some kind of code
 2document or list that has to be both ends? People have to
 3know. It is not just a nod and a wink in something as
 4important as this. Would you not expect to try and some
 5kind of little list that, when I say evacuiert, I really
 6mean kill?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not think so.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there not a danger then that you send a train load of
 9Jews to Minsk, you evacuate them there and the person at
10the other end, Joe Bloggs, thinks they are just going to
11be evacuated, and he has them evacuated without realising
12he is supposed to kill them?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Or the reverse, as we know happened in Riga. One cannot
14expect it to be entirely consistent, but I think it is
15clear that people knew that there was a euphemistic
16language. It is not consistent. There is a variety of
17different terms used.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     But does not this whole scenario raise the obvious
19objection that any conspiracy theory has, that as soon as
20you are presupposing a major conspiracy with everybody
21knowing what is going on, everybody who is in the know,
22there must be some kind of documentation of the fact of
23the conspiracy, the code list or the list of names, and,
24apart from one or two scattered references like Heinrich
25Himmler' Posen speech, we do not actually have the
26equivalences, do we, spelled out?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is such a convoluted question I am not how to answer
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it is the same question you were
 4asked before. Would you expect some sort of list or code,
 5and you have said no.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not expect some sort of list, no.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 417, line 4?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     The oath of secrecy which was taken by people involved in
10Operation Reinhardt, I think we agreed that there is such
11an oath because I have seen at least one. Do you remember
12what it consisted of, the three or four points what they
13swear to secrecy on?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Remind me. I quote it somewhere.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do they swear to preserve secrecy about what is going on
16in the evacuation?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry. I would have to see a copy of the oath, I am
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     You asked me to remind you.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you ----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think I quote it somewhere, I am trying to try and it.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Let me put it like this. Was it not to protect the
24plundering character of Operation Reinhardt from
25unauthorized eyes?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In fact, I have it on page 609 of my report, the

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 1fundamental order No. 1. Is this what we are referring
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     No.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     25th September 41. It is certainly what I am referring to
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     No. The oath of secrecy that each person involved at
 7Auschwitz or somewhere like that had to sign on pain of
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I cannot comment on that without seeing it.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is very easily got hold of. It is
11document 112, is it not?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is not the fundamental order No. 1 in September 1941,
13but something different.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What are you referring to then? It is a
15document that camp officials at Auschwitz had to sign? Mr
16Irving, is that right?
17 MR IRVING:     Yes, there was but, in view of this, let me move
18straight on to talk about the document which he has
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right.
21 MR IRVING:     You refer to this Hitler secrecy order on page 417,
22line 2?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     As the famous Hitler secrecy order No. 1?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     You date it for some reason September 25th 1941.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. Is that wrong?
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     What inference do you draw from that and have you drawn
 3from that?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is all right? The date is OK, is it?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is the date suggested to be wrong,
 6Mr Irving?
 7 MR IRVING:     That is question two, my Lord. I am asking
 8question one at this stage. What inference do you draw?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not draw any inference in the report from the date.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is document 112.
11 MR RAMPTON:     I am going to try to find the document.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I think it might be worth doing.
13 MR IRVING:     Do you not say at line 4 that this order for
14secrecy clearly covered the operational details of the
15Final Solution? Is that not the inference you draw from
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It was in effect, unless you are telling me it was issued
18in 1945 or 44, then I think that follows.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     No. You are implying that this order, unless I have
20totally misunderstood you, in which case I apologise, was
21drawn up as part of the security measures to protect the
22ugly details of the Final Solution?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Ah no, I am not. I do not think that follows there at
24all. It certainly did cover all of that.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does not even the most incompetent historian know that the
26famous Adolf Hitler secrecy order was dated January 11th

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