Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 76 - 80 of 237

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     We have the whole kaleidoscope of words being used there
 3by the Nazis?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     By Hitler, not by the Nazis.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Over the page, page 413, line 4 of the indented passage,
 6we have once again January 25th 1942. That is just five
 7days after the Wannsee conference, is it not?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     All Hitler is saying is the Jews have to get out of
10Europe. Four lines lower down, "I am just saying, he has
11to go". It does not really very homicidal to me.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Well, read on.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me read out the whole passage.
15 MR IRVING:     Then comes the tough talk.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Of course. When it gets tough, it is just talk. When it
17is not tough, then it is real. That is your view.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     He is not saying we are setting about- he said if they die
19on the way ---?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let the witness read it. Please do not let
21us have this batting backwards and forwards.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Hitler says in this table talk 25th January: "If I take
23the Jews out today, then our bourgeoisie becomes unhappy:
24what is happening then with them? But have the same
25people troubled themselves about what would become of the
26Germans who had to emigrate? One must do it quickly, it

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 1is no better if I have one tooth pulled out by a few
 2centimetres" -- he does say centimetres but I think he
 3means millimetres -- "every three months, when it is out,
 4the pain has gone. The Jew has to get out of Europe.
 5Otherwise we get no European understanding. He incites
 6the people the most, everywhere. In the end: I do not
 7know, I am colossally humane. The Jews", carries on
 8Hitler "were maltreated at the time of the Pope's rule in
 9Rome. Up to 1830 eight Jews were driven through the city
10every year with donkeys. I am just saying, he has to
11go". That is, the Jew has to go. "If he collapses in the
12course of it, I can't help there. I only see one thing:
13absolute extermination, if they don't go of their own
14accord. Why should I look at a Jew with other eyes than
15at a Russian prisoner of war? Many are dying in the
16prison camps because we have been driven into this
17situation by the Jews. But what can I do about that? Why
18then did the Jews instigate the war?" So he is
19threatening absolute extermination if the Jews do not go
20of their own accord, and he is talking about the Russian
21prisoners of war, many of them dying in the same context
22as he is talking about Jews. The murderous character of
23that conversation could hardly be clearer.
24 MR IRVING:     What is the phrase for "absolute Ausrottung"? You
25are quite incorrigible. What is the German he uses?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You just said.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Absolute Ausrottung"?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     You translated that as "absolute extermination"?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Quite clearly it is absolute rooting up, is it not? Have
 6you never had to uproot?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Again, we have had that point. I am well
 8aware of the argument.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is these tendentious translations on which he relies.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think it is a tendentious translation.
11"Ausrottung" means extirpation, uprooting, rooting out or
12total -- if you look up "extirpation" in the Oxford
13English dictionary, you will to try and it will mean----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     And you translate it every time ----
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me finish, Mr Irving. If you look up "extirpation" in
16the Oxford English Dictionary, which you obviously have
17not done, then you will to try and the translations
18include "total destruction". If you look it up in the
19Cassell's 1936 English German dictionary, you will to try
20and "Ausrottungskrieg" is translated as a "war of
21extermination". It is a perfectly legitimate
22translation. There is nothing tendentious about it. In
23connection here with all the things he is saying about
24killing Russian prisoners of war, deaths in the prison
25camp, and so on, it is quite clear what it means.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     He says they are dying, he does not say they are being

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 1killed, does he? He says they are dying in the prison
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is right.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are calling this extermination. You take the third or
 5fourth meaning of the word.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think it is a reasonable conclusion to draw, that the
 7Russian prisoners of war, of whom 3 or 4 million died in
 8the prisoner of war camps in the Second World War, are
 9being exterminated by the Nazis. Why they are dying in
10the prison camps? Hitler knows perfectly well, because
11they are not being given food or sanitation. They are
12dying of typhus and starvation. He is aware of that.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I give you another example of your tendentious
14translations of another word? Page 409.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not accept they are tendentious.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Wait, Professor Evans.
17 MR IRVING:     Page 409, please, halfway down. Have you got this
18passage: "In his table talk, Hitler even hinted at the
19violent fate of the Jews when he referred to 'racial
20pests' being beaten to death".
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is the actual document there? Can we have a look at
23the actual passage that was used?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, pages 407 to 8, footnote 30. It is "Wenn mann von
25Staats wegen einen ausgesprochenen Volksschadling
26unschadliche mache, zum Beispiel totschlage".

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     So how did you manage "Volksschadling" as "racial pests"?
 2It is in the singular, is it not?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think it is quite clear that he is talking in the
 4singular, "der Jude". He says, "Wenn aber der Jude den
 5deutschen Menschen" -- you think he is talking about one
 6single Jew there? It is all collective.
 7 MR IRVING:     Does your Lordship have the passage?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it is translated in the singular at
 9page 407.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, it is. Page 407.
11 MR IRVING:     Halfway down page 409: "In his table talk, Hitler
12even hinted at the violent fate of the Jews when he
13referred to 'racial pests' or 'Volksschadlinge'". What
14entitles you, first of all, to translate the word
15"Volksschadlinge" as "racial pests"?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well "Schadlinge" is derived from agricultural biology.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     We know that. What about "Volks"?
18 MR IRVING:     Let the witness to.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Will you let the witness answer, Mr Irving?
20It is impossible for me to follow it. Every answer is
22 MR IRVING:     I apologise.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Schadlinge" means what?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is a sort of agricultural biology term meaning a kind
25of pest, of crops, or something like that, a sort of small
26animal that devours crops, I think.

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