Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 66 - 70 of 237

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     27th March and 30th May, I think, from memory.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     30th May is one and 27th March?
 3 MR IRVING:     The one that I gave you as the facsimile, your
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We can go all over it again, Mr Irving, but
 6we have ----
 7 MR IRVING:     I do not really want to, but I cannot allow this
 8court assumes that this final gap has been bridged by the
 9bald statement that there are ----
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The court is not assuming anything; it is
11listening to what Professor Evans has said and he has said
12that one document is 30th May ----
13 MR IRVING:     Which is the ----
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- and the other is 27th March. You know
15which those two documents are. You may not agree with
16what Professor Evans says, but you know why he says what
17he does.
18 MR IRVING:     But 3rd May is the Siberian one and that is the
19exact opposite?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry...
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     All right. We will go through it all over
22the again.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     29th May, yes.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     29th May.
25 MR IRVING:     29th May?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. That is the diary entry of 30th May for the previous

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 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you give me the page reference in your
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is pages 8 to 9 of my supplementary letter, my Lord.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What do you want to ask about that,
 6Mr Irving? 30th May 1942.
 7 MR IRVING:     30th May 1942, is this?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is the passage that we went through about 20 minutes
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is exactly what I have just suggested,
13that we have actually been through these two documents in
14some detail. Do we need to go back and go through them
15all over again?
16 MR IRVING:     No, I do not because I would not accept that this
17is evidence of Goebbels telling Hitler about a homicidal
18Final Solution.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I follow you do not accept it, but Professor
20Evans says the opposite, you see.
21 MR IRVING:     But this is what I call the Siberia reference which
22showed is exactly the opposite sense, and unless one
23assumes that evacuating Siberia is a euphemism for
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am very loath to go into this all over again, my Lord.
26I think it is clear.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you just state simply ----
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the benefit? We have been through
 3this. I can go back and get it up on the screen, but we
 4have been through this document in some detail.
 5 MR IRVING:     We have indeed, but can I just ask ----
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know what you say about it, I know what
 7Professor Evans says about it and, in the end, I have to
 8decide what a sensible, objective historian would make of
10 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, one simple question then and I
11hope you can answer yes or no, is your belief that the
12phrase evacuating to Siberia and evacuating to Lapland are
13euphemisms for killing when used by Hitler?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I cannot this yes or no because that is not the key
15passage in this entry of 30th May 1942. The key passages
16come earlier.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then we will move on. Will you now look at the footnote
18on pages 407 and 408?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I apologise for the glitch in the word processor
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     It actually begins five lines from the bottom, does it
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, it has repeated a whole lot.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     On the second line from the bottom, you find the words
25"auswanderten" and "auswanderer", is that right?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where are you, Mr Irving?

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 1 MR IRVING:     I Professor Evans' report.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You must remember that I have to follow what
 3you are putting.
 4 MR IRVING:     I am moving too fast, my Lord. 407 to 408. We are
 5looking at the footnote that begins on the foot of page
 6407. My simple question is two lines from the bottom,
 7does the witness see the words "auswanderten" and
 8"auswanderer" and it follows over, two lines down on the
 9same footnote on the facing page, "Auswanderung" and
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     How would you translate the root "auswanderer" there,
13"emigrate" or "kill"?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We have already been through this.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, just a simple answer will ----
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I cannot give a simple answer because it is a loaded
17question. That is the problem with your questions,
18Mr Irving. I have already been through this document and
19I have noted that when Hitler states that Germans
20emigrated, which is the meaning of the word "auswanderer",
21from Germany in the 19th century, in his view 75 per cent
22of them died. It is a deadly process. We have no
23evidence for that. It is a completely absurd idea, they
24did not, but that is his view of emigration. There is a
25clear connection there.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but do you ----

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And then he goes on to talk about the way in which he
 2thought that Jews drove Germans to emigrate in a way that
 3describes exactly the way, in fact, that the Germans drove
 4the Jews to emigrate.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is purely and etymological exercise, Professor. How
 6would you translate then "Jewish emigration" in the
 7emigrating sense, not the killing sense?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I mean, you enter reservations about the point of
 9indulging in purely etymological exercises ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you just answer the question? Would it be "Juden
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- given the misuse that you make of them. But, of
13course, it means "emigration". I have said that
14repeatedly. That is the literal meaning of the word
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     What German word would you use for "Jewish emigration"?
17"Juden Auswanderung"?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Something like that, yes, "Judische Auswanderung",
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that not precisely the word used in the September 1942
21document that we are going to be looking at later?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, let us have a look at it.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we tackle things in sequence, Professor ----
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, you are the one who introduced the September
25document, Mr Irving, I did not.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     

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