Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 61 - 65 of 237

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    I strongly agree, but the suggestion that England
 1the Japanese.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is rather a different matter.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It did not happen in Madagascar, Mr Irving.
 4Why do we not get back to what you were on before which is
 5really more, I think, central?
 6 MR IRVING:     I agree, but occasionally these little excursions
 7are inflicted on me. Page 405 of your report, please.
 8You are stating that, "I did not publish the passage from
 9Goebbels diary" -- this is towards the end of paragraph
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     "'We speak in conclusion about the Jewish question. Here
13the Fuhrer remains, now as before, unrelenting. The Jews
14must get out of Europe, if necessary, with the application
15of the most brutal means'"?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     What inference do you draw from that -- a homicidal
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     At this time, in March 1942, it is very difficult to draw
20any other inference than that.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     It was not the midnight knock of the Gestapo and
22instructions to get packed within two hours and you are
23only allowed to carry 28 pounds with you, and bring all
24your money and valuables -- was that not pretty brutal and
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Pretty brutal, yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Pages 405 to 6 ----
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The question, Mr Irving, is really about your omission of
 3the statement that the Fuhrer is unrelenting.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     But I also omitted the part where it says that the Jews
 5must get out of Europe which would have counterbalanced
 6it ----
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "With the application of the most brutal means".
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     At the top of page 406, you quite rightly point out that I
 9have a date, March 20th, when it should have been March
1030th, is that right?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you concede that that is immaterial?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I will not, most certainly not.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why is it not immaterial?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, because, let me go back to what you say in 1977,
16Hitler's War: "Ghastly secrets of Auschwitz and Treblinka
17were well kept. Goebbels wrote a frank summary of them in
18his diary on March 27 1942, but evidently held his tongue
19when he met Hitler two days later for he quotes only
20Hitler's remark, 'The Jews must get out of Europe. If
21need be, we must resort to the most brutal methods'.".
22     So, you maintain that he made that statement
23about, which I just quoted, two days after Goebbels wrote
24this summary on March 27th. In fact, what you are trying
25to do is to give the impression -- let me just find where
26I am on my notes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would it surprise you to hear that the error has been ----
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Please let the witness answer.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What you do is to quote Hitler, "The Jews must get out of
 4Europe" from the diary of 20th March as if it was from
 530th March, in other words, he made that statement before
 6Goebbels made a frank summary. It is true that Goebbels
 7made a frank summary of the extermination in March, but it
 8is not true that he concealed it when he met Hitler two
 9days later because the quote that you use to support your
10view that Hitler did not know about it after this frank
11summary on 27th March is lifted from a week earlier in the
12diary and not from two days later where it is not there.
13So I do think this is a clear piece of manipulation. This
14diary is written in chronological order. It is very
15difficult to get that date wrong.
16 MR IRVING:     Would it surprise you to hear that the error has
17been corrected in the later editions completely ----
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I know that the error has been corrected in the later
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you not interrupt me -- completely painlessly and
21without the slightest damage to the arguments that I have
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It has been corrected in the later -- in the 1991 edition,
24but, of course, there you omit all mention of the "ghastly
25secrets of Auschwitz and Treblinka" because you do not
26believe they existed, these secrets any more, whatever

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 1they are, and it makes it easier in 1991 for you because
 2you deny the gas chambers and also it has all been done on
 3the initiative of Himmler and Goebbels, so ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we try to keep to the actual question that I am asking
 5or we are not going to cover the ground today. Would you
 6look at page 408, the footnote -- 407, the footnote?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, in order to answer the question about your changing
 8the text in 1991, one has to give the context. Here again
 9what you do not omit is the idea that Goebbels was
10concealing this information from Hitler. This time you,
11in fact, make it more general. You uncouple it from any
12specific meeting.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am afraid I must have a look at that? Have
14you got the page there?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That again is in my letter of 10th of ----
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But have you got the page reference in ----
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Hitler's War.
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     --- 1991 of Hitler's War?
19 MR RAMPTON:     It is page 464. It is in the second part, my
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     464.
22 MR RAMPTON:     It is a paragraph which starts: "Dr Goebbels,
23agitating from Berlin". It goes down to the end of the
24paragraph at 465.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Here it says, "Although he held", that is Goebbels, "his
26tongue when meeting his Fuhrer" which suggests on every

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 1occasion that he met him he held his tongue about, well...
 2 MR IRVING:     What he knew?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What he knew, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you have any evidence otherwise?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, we have already been through this.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, do you have any evidence in any of the files that
 7Goebbels told Hitler: "Mein Fuhrer, there is something
 8I have to tell you that I have found out"?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we have had that, and I think the
10answer is there are two documents to which you point
11Professor Evans to support his contention that Hitler
12knew, had been told by Goebbels.
13 MR IRVING:     No, Goebbels telling Hitler which is something
14slightly different, my Lord.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There are those two documents. We had this
16point a little while ago, did we not?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, we have dealt with it.
18 MR IRVING:     Which arguments are you referring to, Professor?
19I have to know what I am answering here. Which documents
20are you referring to? Goebbels telling Hitler about the
21Final Solution ----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Do I really have to go through this again?
23 MR IRVING:     --- in a homicidal sense.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If can find it, I will just -- if you know
25the dates of the documents, we are not going to go through
26them again, but I do not have them. One is 30th ----

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