Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 1 - 237 of 237


 1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
 2Royal Courts of Justice
 3Strand, London
 4 Monday, 21st February 2000
 5
 6Before:
 7MR JUSTICE GRAY
 8
 9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
10Claimant -and-
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
13Defendants
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
16Second Defendants
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
20
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
& Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
22Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell & Company)
24
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY TWENTY-THREE
26

.      P-1



 1 < Day 23 Monday, 21st February 2000.
 2 (10.30 a.m.)
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I just want to say something to
 4Mr Rampton, if I may, first off. Do you think it would be
 5possible, Mr Rampton, to get an index prepared for these
 6files that have come into existence during the course of
 7the trial? I mean J.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     In hand ----
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Good.
10 MR RAMPTON:     --- already.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Because I am finding with the transcript so
12often you cannot actually discover where it is from the
13transcript and then you have to wade through.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I quite agree, but that is in hand. Slowly a
15process is happening whereby each topic will have a
16separate distilled file.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am glad it is in hand. Thank you very
18much.
19 MR RAMPTON:     I have nearly finished the one on history and then
20there will be others.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, Mr Irving.
22 MR IRVING:     May it please the court. My Lord, three minor
23points to deal with before I resume the cross-examination
24of Professor Evans. First of all, the Defendants provided
25to me, or served on me at about 6.30, in other words after
26close of business on Friday, a 24-page glossary of

.        P-2



 1meanings of German words prepared by a Dr Longerich, who
 2is going to be the next expert witness. I am not very
 3happy about this way of doing things. They have been
 4working on this case now for 18 months or more, and to
 5have quite an important document like that provided to me
 6at literally the last moment is awkward.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I sympathise with that because you have quite
 8a lot on your plate already but, having said that, I think
 9I would probably be able to guess at the contents of a
10good deal of it because we have been through a lot in the
11evidence, have we not, like Ausrotten and so on.
12 MR IRVING:     It is perfectly proper that they should served such
13a glossary as that because experts are allowed to give
14evidence on the meaning of foreign words, as I understand
15it, and that is what this largely is. It is looking at
16various words in various documents partly pre-empting what
17I was about to say anyway. I am unhappy about the
18document being put to your Lordship in that form without
19your Lordship realising that it has only just been put to
20me. It is rather like the catalogue of extracts, a very
21handy reference form for your Lordship, rather like a
22printed index. I am just unhappy that it has been done at
23this very late moment.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I will certainly bear that in mind.
25 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship has not got one, so can I pass one
26up. It is really a most helpful document, I find. That

.        P-3



 1is in English. The original was in German. It is
 2relatively uncontroversial, I would have thought.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It may be controversial, but nothing new?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     There is nothing new in it. It is a review of the
 5usage of certain key words. That is all it is.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     As I understand it really, there is pretty
 7much agreement that a lot of these words are either in
 8themselves equivocal, they can mean something sinister or
 9not, or in many cases the words are innocent, ostensibly
10innocent words are used to camouflage a sinister meaning.
11So in the end maybe not a great deal turns on it.
12 MR IRVING:     It may be helpful in some respects, it may be
13contentious in others, my Lord. That is all I want to say
14before I actually start the cross-examination on that. It
15is neither fish nor fowl again. Like so much that has
16been done in this case, it is neither the expert report
17which should have been served last August, nor is it
18something being put to the witness in the witness box. It
19is kind of halfway in between.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I tell you, I will bear that in mind when
21we get to it. Mr Rampton, shall I put this into
22Longerich?
23 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, would your Lordship put it in the front of
24Longerich, I would recommend.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
26 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the next point is of rather more

.        P-4



 1substance. This concerns the matter of the expert reports
 2which have been withdrawn. I am sorry, they have not been
 3withdrawn, but on which no cross-examination will be
 4possible.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 6 MR IRVING:     Your Lordship and I have both raised our eyebrows
 7over the possibility of putting in reports without the
 8witnesses to back them up as far as expert reports are
 9concerned. I am going to invite your Lordship to direct
10that the Defendants should produce a skeleton, in effect,
11setting out the authorities and statutes on which they
12rely, if they intend to put in the reports without the
13experts. I think that would be perfectly proper to enable
14me to argue the matter at a later date.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I think I said, when Mr Rampton
16indicated that that was what they were intending to do,
17that it was the first time I had come across this being
18done in relation to experts' reports. I think it is
19reasonable that, subject to what Mr Rampton may wish to
20say, you should have chapter and verse presented to you
21for an entitlement to take that course with an expert, but
22I will hear what Mr Rampton says obviously.
23 MR IRVING:     Obviously, if I am not going to be required to
24present evidence or to impugn those experts reports,
25I should be told as early as possible because that will
26halt a major amount of the work that is still ahead of me.

.        P-5



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think anyone is suggesting you are
 2not entitled to impugn their reports by evidence or in
 3other ways. The question you are really on is whether
 4they are entitled to adduce the experts' reports under the
 5Civil Evidence Act or not.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     I have to say, I do not think it is an enormous
 7point. If we think we want to rely to any extent on the
 8actual contents of the reports of the witnesses that we
 9are not calling in person, then naturally we will have to
10persuade your Lordship that we are entitled to do that.
11Presently, my view is that almost everything that I need
12for cross-examination of this subject and for proof is to
13be found in Mr Irving's own words and in documents sent to
14him.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but if you are going to rely on the
16uncalled experts, then it may not take very long because
17I suspect the answer is that the language of the Act does
18not distinguish between expert and lay witnesses.
19 MR RAMPTON:     I am almost certain it does not, but I am not
20going to commit myself.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There may be some authority on it. It does
22strike me as slightly unusual.
23 MR RAMPTON:     I have not come across it before but that does not
24mean it cannot be done .
25 MR IRVING:     It does certainly put me at a disadvantage, not
26knowing precisely what they are intending to do.

.        P-6



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we know what they are intending to
 2do. There is a question whether they are entitled to do
 3it.
 4 MR IRVING:     Mr Rampton, as I understood, has just said that he
 5might rely on parts and he might not, which leaves us
 6precisely where we were when I into court this morning.
 7What I am really asking is that your Lordship should
 8direct them, if they intend to rely on part, they must
 9indicate what statutes and authorities they are going to
10rely on to open that particular door.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I will be a bit more specific about
12it. I think it would be helpful to have it in writing
13briefly.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think there must be a brief written
16submission lodged by -- are we going to finish Professor
17Evans today?
18 MR RAMPTON:     Professor Evans today -- can I say a little bit
19about how I see things going? Your Lordship may or may
20not agree with me, I do not know. Professor Evans I hope
21will finish today. Then there will be Dr Longerich
22tomorrow. I hope that he will finish either tomorrow or
23Wednesday. Then comes the question what happens next.
24There is a vast amount of material in part generated by
25what one might call the history of Mr Irving's own
26activities in these areas.

.        P-7



 1     What Miss Rogers and I and others have been
 2doing is to try and reduce all that vast amount of
 3material to two files. Those files themselves are quite
 4fat. First, I would not want to cross-examine Mr Irving
 5on those files without his having seen them, and I do
 6believe that the more time he could have to absorb -- it
 7is all material which is in the wider range of files
 8already. There is nothing new in it, but it has all been
 9pulled together. In front of each section the intention
10is to have a little summary of what each section contains,
11which Miss Rogers has been doing with help.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     These are the people he has associated with,
13is that right?
14 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, the people he has associated with,
15organizations and individuals.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
17 MR RAMPTON:     I began to read it over the weekend and it will be
18an extremely valuable set of documents. In the end, it
19will cut things down. My tentative proposal would be
20that, when Dr Longerich has finished, I would have some
21questions of Mr Irving in cross-examination on history,
22but I would leave that association cross-examination until
23the following Monday. Then, when that was finished, which
24would take maybe half a day or a day, I would then call
25Professor Funke.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are, effectively, suggesting that

.        P-8



 1Wednesday onwards should be time for Mr Irving to digest
 2these files?
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Probably Thursday onwards because I will have some
 4cross-examination. A combination of Dr Longerich and my
 5further cross-examination on history should get us
 6probably through all or most of Wednesday. Then what I am
 7proposing is we should take the last two days of this week
 8off so that Mr Irving can read these files, which he
 9should get by, I hope, tomorrow night.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
11 MR RAMPTON:     If he says he cannot do it in the time, then he
12will say so and your Lordship will hear what he has to
13say.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we just revert to the written
15submissions? I think close of business tomorrow for the
16written submissions on entitlement not to call the experts
17but to rely on their evidence.
18 MR RAMPTON:     I do not think it will take very long, I may be
19wrong. The new edition of Phippson has just come out, so
20I can have a look in that.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Say close of business tomorrow for a short
22note of the submissions.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So you will get it hopefully sometime towards
25the end of tomorrow. Mr Irving what about the suggestion
26Mr Rampton has just made about the way in which we deal

.        P-9



 1with the rest of the evidence? I am not going to do
 2anything if you have sensible objections to it.
 3 MR IRVING:     I have no objection to that, my Lord. The
 4timetable sounds very sound. If I was to utter a wish and
 5I know my wishes count for very little in this court room,
 6it would be that one of the spare days should be put
 7before Dr Longerich rather than after, to able me to take
 8Longerich probably advised, although I am prepared for him
 9and, of course, I have read his entire report and have
10prepared a large bundle of material, which would in effect
11being tomorrow being free and Longerich being called on
12the following day.
13 MR RAMPTON:     I embrace that enthusiasm, if I may say so. It
14would make our task in completing these files a lot easier
15if we did it that way. I do not any longer have to do any
16preparation for Dr Longerich, except that that will also
17give me the opportunity to finish the history file.
18Mr Irving certainly will need that and, if he can get it
19by close of play tonight, or even lunch time tomorrow,
20that will help.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I am happy to do that, providing that we
22have the bundles available so that tomorrow can be used
23looking through your new material. I can use tomorrow.
24 MR RAMPTON:     The history file he should have tomorrow, because
25that helps his cross-examination of Dr Longerich. I will
26tell your Lordship how it is proposed to compose it. On

.        P-10



 1one side would be in chronological order the German
 2documents. So far as they are available, on the facing
 3page will be an English translation of the key part. For
 4the most part, that can be done just by removing. What I
 5have done is to remove the page from the expert report and
 6put it facing the German text.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     As long as that is going to be available by
 8tonight.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     I will finish that tonight, it will be copied
10tomorrow morning and then distributed as soon as possible.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can than be accelerated? I think Mr Irving
12will want to use the whole of tomorrow, and indeed so will
13I.
14 MR RAMPTON:     I have about another 30 pages to get through.
15When I have done that, it will go off and be copied.
16Whether late tonight or early tomorrow morning, Mr Irving
17will get a copy.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Early tomorrow, yes. That is what we will do
19then.
20 MR IRVING:     I am very pleased to hear that, my Lord. There is
21one very minor point which then remains. I might either
22put it just as a factual point or put it to the witness in
23cross-examination. This is the fact that, very minor
24point, the 10 a.m. broadcast by Dr Goebbels as opposed to
254 p.m., I have been informed by Mrs Weckert, who heard it,
26that she heard it at her school. It was repeatedly

.        P-11



 1broadcast during the day. She heard it as a school child
 2and the German school only operated from 8.00 am until
 3midday.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you are going to say that, you can
 5certainly put it. There is a technical objection to be
 6taken that you cannot really put it unless you have Mrs
 7Weckert available. She is alive obviously because you
 8have spoken to her recently.
 9 MR IRVING:     A few days ago.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You could probably correct it by means of a
11Civil Evidence Act notice but, Mr Rampton, I think it is
12reasonable to put this.
13 MR RAMPTON:     If Mr Irving says it, Mr Irving says it. Whether
14Mrs Weckert is to be believed is quite another question.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Or indeed whether she can remember. I think
16that is a question in cross-examination and not a
17submission.
18 MR IRVING:     Very well. Professor Evans?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Evans, you have been waiting
20patiently. Would you like to resume, now?
21 < PROFESSOR EVANS, Continued
22Cross-examination by Mr Irving, continued.
23 MR IRVING:     Good morning, Professor Evans. Are you aware of
24what time German schools operated during the war years?
25Was it on an all day basis?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     To my knowledge, German schools have never operated on an

.        P-12



 1all day basis. They still do not.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Am I right in saying they start very early and end about
 3lunch time?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, about 1 o'clock.
 5 MR IRVING:     That is the only question that I can usefully ask.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have not put the thrust of it yet. You
 7should.
 8 MR IRVING:     I will have to then. In that case, if a Mrs Ingrid
 9Weckert was to say that, as a school child, she heard the
10Goebbels broadcast as a school child, when it was
11broadcast to all the school children, on the morning of
12November 10th 1938, would you agree that in that case
13this would mean that she had heard it during the morning?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The question is whether one believe her 62 years after the
15event, and given the fact that she is not to be believed
16in almost anything thing that she writes or says about
17these events.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is she the amateur -- perhaps amateur is
19wrong.
20 MR IRVING:     An amateur historian who is a right winger.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Who is accused of being anti-semitic by the
22Defendants?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Whose book has been placed on the black list by the German
24government, my Lord, as anti-semitic and liable to stir up
25racial hatred in its account of the events of 9th and 10th
26November 1938.

.        P-13



 1 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, you rely quite heavily in your
 2expert report on a book by a man called Dr Kogon. Is that
 3right?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not very heavily, no. I do cite it in a number of places.
 5It is not solely by him. It is written by him in
 6collaboration with others.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask you to have a look at this little bundle of
 8documents? Your Lordship also has this bundle, I believe.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have not seen this before, have I, Mr Irving?
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     No. It is a new bundle?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Thank you. I have to say it is rather difficult being
12handed substantial bundles of material every morning by
13Mr Irving without any prior warning.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sure you are going to be able to
15cope, Professor Evans.
16 MR IRVING:     This is the way it works, Professor Evans.
17I submit documents to you and invite you to comment on
18them. Is page 1 an extract from a report in the New York
19Times of December 26th 1987?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It appears to be. It is not a photocopy though it is not
21an original.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it refer to the fact that a well-known renowned
23anti-Nazi writer and Resistance figure, Eugene Kogon has
24been listed by the United Nations as wanted for mass
25murder on the same list as lists Kurt Valtheim and various
26other Nazis?

.        P-14



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It does. It goes on to say, "Hermann Langbann, the
 2co-author and long time associate of Dr Kogon said from
 3Vienna this week that Dr Kogon had saved many prisoners at
 4Buchenwald at great personal risk, and that the
 5Commission's listing was a tragic error."
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The New York Times story starts with a reference to
 8inaccuracies and untested allegations in the files on
 9which such listings appear to rest.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. My Lord, just so you can know where we are going
11today, your Lordship might wish to know that I will
12certainly complete cross-examining the witness on the
13whole of the report up to but not including the
14Adjutants. Quite simply, I am still not certain whether
15the Adjutants are being relied on by the Defence or not in
16this matter.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is fair because they disappeared
18from the picture at one stage and I think they have
19partially come back in.
20 MR RAMPTON:     No, not really. Can I say I rely on the Adjutants
21this far and I have already made the point in
22cross-examination. Professor Evans has already made it
23from the witness box. I rely on the Adjutants to show
24what one might call an uncritical credulity where they are
25concerned as contrasted with what one might call a
26critical incredulity where witnesses say things that Mr

.        P-15



 1Irving does not like.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Particularly in Kristallnacht.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Exactly, and on Auschwitz.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. So, in other words, you are not really
 5going to put your case in any greater detail than already
 6has been done?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     No.
 8 MR IRVING:     In that case, I do not propose to waste much time
 9on him. It is very interesting what the Professor has
10written, but we do want to press ahead. (To the witness):
11Professor Evans, will you go to page 397 of your report,
12please?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     You touch there briefly on the gassings at Belzec,
15Treblinka and Sobibor, and you say that these events are
16not disputed by serious historians.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not see that.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     397?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     399. I say that in 399, yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes on 399?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry, paragraph 8.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is a very brief summary of what I take to be the
24existing state of knowledge as a background to what I say
25in this section of my report.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I am not going to question you in any great detail

.        P-16



 1on those camps because, of course, for the purposes of
 2this trial, we are accepting that gassings did occur in
 3those camps. But again just going to the quality of your
 4knowledge, are you saying that there is a broad consensus
 5on these camps? This is another example of the broad
 6consensus that you use sometimes as your guiding star?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is really for the orientation for the court. It is not
 8just on the camps. I describe in the paragraphs as
 9rapidly and economically as I can ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you form an opinion about what ----
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- Nazi policy in occupied Poland in a general sense.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you form an opinion about what kind of gas was used in
13those camps in your reading on the matter?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is not -- yes, on the top I do mention this in
15relation to Belzec on line 3 of page 398, carbon monoxide.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware that there has been dispute over that
17particular detail, whether it was carbon oxide or whether
18it was diesel engines or petrol engines or even steam
19being used?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have not heard steam, I have to say, but in any case it
21does not really make a great deal of difference as to
22whether the gas was poisonous or not. The point is, of
23course, that if it was not poisonous, then asphyxiation
24was the cause of death.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Has the position of the mass graves been fixed? There
26must be enormous mass graves of these, what, 1 million

.        P-17



 1people were killed in these three camps.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is really just painting in the background. If you
 3want to present me with documentation on this, Mr Irving,
 4I will be happy to comment on it.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am just asking the state of your knowledge. Are you
 6aware if there has been any kind of archeological
 7investigation of the sites because there are no remains on
 8any of those sites, are there?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You would have to present me with documentation to show
10that there were no remains before I agreed with you.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am a bit puzzled by this in a
12way because you have accepted that I think hundreds of
13thousands of Jews were gassed in those three camps, so, in
14a sense, there is not much to be gained by asking about
15archeological investigation.
16 MR IRVING:     I was using that as an example really of exposing
17to your Lordship the rather shallow nature of the
18investigation made by this expert witness on matters of
19some moment, that I asked three or four questions, to each
20of which I got replies I can only describe as evasive.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but if there is no issue about it,
22really it is beside the point.
23 MR IRVING:     It is not about the fact, but about the scale, my
24Lord, really, and that is how I would leave it.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I think hundreds of thousands you have
26accepted?

.        P-18



 1 MR IRVING:     Yes, of that order of magnitude.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The problem is, Mr Irving, I am not prepared to accept
 3statements of your about archeological remains and so on
 4unless you can present me with documentation.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     The question I asked you was were you aware of any
 6archeological investigations.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well....
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     And I was asking purely about the state of your
 9enquiries. We will now proceed, my Lord. We will make
10very rapid progress today. We are going to go to the
11Goebbels diary entry of March 27th 1942 which begins on
12that same page, 399, of your report, Professor Evans.
13I am going to ask you to look at page 400 of your report,
14Professor Evans, line 3. This is the part that matters.
15I am going to read out the translation that you have
16offered to the court of these three or four lines: "The
17Jews are now being pushed out of the General Government".
18What is happening here? Has Dr Goebbels received ----
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The top line, yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Has Dr Goebbels received a report from the SD or from some
21Nazi authority which he is summarising here, is this what
22has happened?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not saying -- he certainly has been informed about
24these events and he is putting down a summary of them.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     A summary of them. Is there any indication known to you
26that that particular report went to Adolph Hitler? I have

.        P-19



 1to ask that because that is an element of this trial.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Then you would have to provide me with a copy of the
 3report and we would have to look at it in detail.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     If there had been an indication that it had gone to Adolf
 5Hitler in the diary, then you would have referred to it,
 6would you not?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, indeed, yes. I mean, if, or, rather, if Goebbels
 8thought it worth mentioning that a report had been the
 9basis of what he is saying here and that it had gone to
10Hitler and he had mentioned it, then I would have
11mentioned that too, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     You rely on this diary entry quite heavily as evidence
13that Goebbels was what, 100 per cent aware of the killings
14in the East, the killing of the Jews being pushed out of
15the General Government, that Goebbels was aware that this
16was going on?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     "The Jews are now being pushed out of the General
19Government, beginning near Lublin, to the East", he
20writes. "A pretty barbaric procedure is being applied
21here, and it is not to be described in any more detail,
22and not much is left to the Jews themselves". I have no
23quarrel with that translation.
24     You then continue: "In general one may conclude
25that 60 per cent of them must be liquidated, while only 40
26per cent can be put to work". This is the sentence on

.        P-20



 1which you really rely, is it not?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Among others.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I mean, I quote a very lengthy chunk of this because you
 5used this -- you suppressed a great deal of this in your
 6own, in your own work.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now, Dr Goebbles is not stating this as a fact, is he? He
 8is speculating. You have left a word out, have you not,
 9in your translation? You left out the word "wohl. I draw
10your attention to line 3 of the footnote.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I am sorry. I have not. I have translated that as
12"In general one may conclude", not that "one must
13conclude" ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     I draw attention to ----
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And that, if I may finish, that formulation is intended to
16convey the sense of strong probability that the word
17"wohl" indicates.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does not "wohl" mean "perhaps"?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it does not. It means "probably".
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Even if it meant "probably" which I would participate ----
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If he wanted to say "perhaps" he would have
22said "vielleicht".
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have left the word out, have you not?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I have not left it out, Mr Irving.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     "In general one may probably conclude" or "one may perhaps
26conclude" indicates speculation on his part and not

.        P-21



 1knowledge.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I am sorry, Mr Irving. "Im grossen kann man wohl
 3festellen", "in general, large scale", "kann" is "can",
 4right, not "may", "man", "one can", "wohl festellen", very
 5well, and it is "very well conclude".
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Wohl" can be translated just as "well" here,
 7can it not, "one can well" ----
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "Conclude", yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     --- "suppose"?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I tried to render that slightly better, less awkward
11English by saying "one may conclude"; the "may" conveying
12the element of slight uncertainty in that use of the word
13"wohl".
14 MR IRVING:     The meanings are, my Lord ----
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have not left the word out.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- "well" "indeed" "possibly" and "probably" in that
17order or "I dare say" which is a very nice one in this
18connection. "I dare say". "I dare say one can conclude
19that 60 per cent of them must be liquidated". Does this
20indicate and element of certainty?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is probably. "Wohl" is stronger than "vielleicht". It
22indicates ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you have left a word out, have you not?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I have not left a word out, Mr Irving. I have
25conveyed this, I think, accurately by indicating the
26element of slight uncertainty in the sentence by saying

.        P-22



 1"one may conclude" instead of "one can well conclude".
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     He is not stating it as a matter fact; he is saying, "this
 3is probably or possibly or I dare say one can say that
 4this happening"?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He is saying,"This is probably happening".
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this not a very weak and rusty hook on which to hang
 7page after page after page of what now follows?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not the only statement here and it does, I think,
 9reflect the policy accurately even if the percentages can
10be argued about in the way they were put into practice.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you read Goebbels as talking about
12percentages in that sentence or about the fact of what is
13happening to the Jews?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, he says, "In general one may conclude that 60 per
15cent of them may be liquidated, while only 40 per cent can
16be put to work. It is those percentages, I mean, that is
17obviously again very rough and that again may well
18indicate the element of uncertainty that he is talking
19about. I mean, I think the "wohl feststellen" expresses
20his slight vagueness about these percentages. It might
21have been 70/30 or 80/20 or some other percentages, but he
22is saying that the probability is it is about 60/40. 60
23will die, be killed, and 40 will be put to work.
24 MR IRVING:     In other words, these figures are not contained in
25the report, are they, these percentages?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You would have to show me the report, Mr Irving, before I

.        P-23



 1could comment on that.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you have seen the diary that you are seeking to draw
 3major conclusions from it of the state of people's
 4knowledge, and I am drawing your attention to the fact
 5that it is not knowledge at all, it is speculation. He is
 6saying, "I dare say one can conclude" or even in the bare,
 7stripped down version you have put, "one can conclude".
 8He is making conclusions. In other words, he is
 9speculating on what is behind it. He may very well be
10right, but I am looking at the fact that you have made no
11attempt to appreciate the meaning of that word "wohl".
12"Im grossen kann man wohl feststellen" does not mean any
13degree of certainty at all on his part ----
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not put that.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- he is saying, "By and large I dare say one can
16conclude", is he not?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not say that, Mr Irving. I say "in general one may
18conclude" not "one must conclude" or "the fact is". I say
19"one may conclude". That is to say, the word "may" is
20permissive. It means you may conclude 60/40 or you may
21conclude something else. The probability is 60/40. It is
22what I would regard as a well informed estimate.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you now regret not having put in the word "perhaps" or
24"possible" or "dare say" in that sentence?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Certainly not, I do not. I think my translation is
26perfectly all right there.

.        P-24



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, notwithstanding that you raise your voice and
 2interrupt me, do you agree ----
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, it makes a change from you raising your voice and
 4interrupting me, Mr Irving.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Don't let us have you both...
 6 MR IRVING:     Do you agree that it would have been better to
 7include a proper translation of the word "wohl" in that
 8sentence?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is a proper translation of that sentence. It is about
10the 15th time I have said that, Mr Irving.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have to say this because -- I am not going to move on --
12of course, you do rely on that, you agree that you rely on
13that sentence and the burden of that sentence quite
14heavily, in refuting me and suggesting that I have
15manipulated, suppressed and omitted words myself, is that
16right?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, where is that in your description of these events
18which I deal with on the previous page?
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Over the next 27 pages you repeatedly hark back to this
20one sentence.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Can you direct me to where I repeatedly hark back to it?
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have just said, over the next 27 pages.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Can you direct me to the exact pages and line numbers in
24which I refer to it?
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     We are going to come to them bit by bit.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Then I cannot accept that statement of yours until you

.        P-25



 1actually do point me to the precise points where I rely
 2and refer to that sentence.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you agree that even in the stripped down version or
 4truncated version of that sentence as presented by
 5you ----
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not agree that it is stripped down or truncated.
 7It is an accurate translation, Mr Irving.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you interrupted the question,
 9Professor Evans.
10 MR IRVING:     Thank you very much.
11THE WITNESS: I have to dispute the premise, my Lord.
12 MR IRVING:     Do you agree that in the version of the sentence as
13presented by you, you are, even in that version it can be
14relied upon only as evidence against Goebbels and not as
15evidence against Adolf Hitler? It is the state of mind of
16Goebbels, not the state of mind of Adolf Hitler or the
17state of his knowledge or speculation.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is the state, this is the state of knowledge of
19Goebbels, yes. Who has said that it is anything else?
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this purporting to be a conversation between Hitler and
21Goebbels ----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. Nobody says that.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is Goebbels in Berlin reading a report that has been
24put on to his desk in Berlin, is that not right?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He appears to be reading a report from which he arrives at
26this estimate that one may conclude that 60 per cent of

.        P-26



 1the Jews pushed out to the East may be liquidated and 40
 2per cent put to work, yes.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why do you say he has been reading a report?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, he says it seems to be that someone has informed
 5about him about this, and maybe somebody has informed him
 6verbally.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I see.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry, I should not have said "reading".
 9 MR IRVING:     My version of Goebbels diary has vanished, my Lord,
10but I believe I am right in saying that the preceding
11sentence, that precedes the part quoted, said something
12like "I have received an SD report", or something like
13that.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If I could see a copy, I could comment on that, if it is
15important. Certainly somebody has informed him that he
16has gained some information from somewhere and he is
17writing down what he has heard.
18 MR IRVING:     There is no indication in that diary because, as we
19said earlier, if there had been, he would have mentioned
20it, that Adolf Hitler had also received this report?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, there is not. There is a statement here in which he
22goes on to link it to Hitler's views, by referring, as he
23so frequently does, and indeed as Hitler himself does, to
24the prophecy that Hitler issued on 30th January 1933,
25that, if the Jews, as he put it, started a new world war,
26they would be annihilated. He goes on to use the language

.        P-27



 1that indeed is Hitler's favourite language in referring to
 2the extermination of the Jews ----
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     You mean 1939, do you not?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. Did I not say 39? I meant 39 -- a struggle for life
 5and death between the Aryan race and the Jewish bacillus.
 6This idea of a bacillus is a very common Hitler
 7terminology. Goebbels is taking it over here. Then he
 8goes on and says, "No other government and no other regime
 9could muster the strength for a general solution to the
10question". "Here too", says Goebbels, "the Fuhrer is the
11persistent pioneer and spokesman of a radical solution
12which is demanded by the way things are and thus appears
13to be unavoidable". I take that to be the same kind of
14statement as is made about Lammers in what we have called
15the Schlegelberger memorandum. That is to say ----
16 MR IRVING:     Please, can we keep very much to the questions?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not interrupt.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is to say, it is a statement about a number of
19occasions on which Hitler has said this thing, or revealed
20himself to be the persistent pioneer. So it is clearly
21talking about a number of occasions. It is not talking
22about a specific occasion on which he is shown a report
23to, or talked about it to, Hitler. That is what I would
24describe as the link between this diary entry and Hitler.
25 MR IRVING:     You do admit of course that there are other
26passages in these same diaries which show Hitler in

.        P-28



 1anything but a homicidal mood towards the Jews?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Point them to me, please.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not going to keep on falling for this game throughout
 4the day, Professor Evans, because we have to get through a
 5great deal today.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Mr Irving, I cannot accept what you are saying without
 7seeing the documentation, I am afraid. I think that is a
 8perfectly reasonable thing to do.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am afraid it is. It does slow things down
10but I think, if you put a proposition to the witness, he
11is not inclined to agree to it unless he see the document
12you rely on, then he is entitled to ask you to look at it.
13 MR IRVING:     Turn to page 404 of your report, please. You will
14see several such passages referred to by you yourself.
15Goebbels diary April 26th, May 29th, 1942, Hitler's table
16talk May 15th, July 24th, 1942. Are those non-homicidal
17passages, if I can put them like that?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What I say is that you rely on them to show that Hitler
19did not know about the extermination of the Jews while
20Goebbels himself did.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. We are going to come to that in sequence, but you
22asked me to point you to those passages. I have now
23pointed you to them.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am pointing to the use you make of them, which is a
25slightly different thing.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If we are coming to them in due course, then

.        P-29



 1let us wait until we do.
 2 MR IRVING:     You are not claiming to be an expert on Goebbels
 3and his relationship with Hitler, are you?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We have been through the nature of my expertise right at
 5the very beginning, Mr Irving.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are not claiming to be an expert on Goebbels and his
 7relationship with Hitler, are you?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think in these pages he necessarily is
 9claiming that.
10 MR IRVING:     Very well. Are you aware of how often Dr Goebbels
11was with Hitler each year around this time? Would it be
12five or ten or 20 times a year?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have not counted, Mr Irving. You tell me.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     The answer is you have not any idea, have you?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is gratuitous. Put the number of
16times.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It seems from the diary entries that I have read to have
18been fairly frequent over the years.
19 MR IRVING:     Fairly frequent. What do you mean by fairly
20frequent?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Would you like to put to me a number? I have not counted,
22Mr Irving. What I am doing here is writing not so much
23about Goebbels and Hitler but about your account of
24Goebbels and Hitler. That is the purpose of my report.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, if it is your case that Goebbels
26was hardly ever seeing Hitler at this time, then I think

.        P-30



 1you ought to say so and, if necessary, give the number of
 2times they would have net, or presumably spoken on the
 3telephone, I do not know.
 4 MR IRVING:     Can you accept that Dr Goebbels, in the year 1942,
 5saw Adolf Hitler about ten times all told? I mean in
 6private.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Ah, that is a different matter.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     As opposed to at mass meetings or something like that?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do find it difficult to accept anything you say,
10Mr Irving, without looking at the documentary basis for
11it.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     That makes life easier for you, does it not, but can you
13just answer the question?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It does not. It makes life a lot more difficult,
15actually.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     You do accept that I worked for 35 years on the Adolf
17Hitler book and I worked for nine years on the Goebbels
18biography, so that I am something of an expert on both
19people?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The question is how you worked, Mr Irving.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, I am asking you a simple question. How many times
22do you think Goebbels actually visited Hitler in 1941 and
23in 42?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have and I am giving the answer. I have not counted.
25My purpose here is to look at your account and your
26manipulation of this entry of 27th March to support your

.        P-31



 1argument that Goebbels was concealing information about
 2the extermination of the Jews from Hitler. That is my
 3purpose here.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not the fact that, from 1939 onwards until 1944,
 5after the bomb attempt on Hitler's life,
 6their relationship can at best be described as distant?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. I do not really think that is true.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     In view of the fact that Dr Goebbels as the Minister of
 9Propaganda visited Hitler only about ten times per year
10during those years, is not that a distant relationship?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We do not know how many times they spoke on the phone.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen any references in the Goebbels diaries to
13telephone calls from Adolf?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Or to Adolf, no. I think Goebbels had a good knowledge of
15what Hitler knew and talked about. It occurs frequently
16in his diaries.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you express that opinion, you must have a pretty
18profound knowledge of Dr Goebbels, is that right?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not necessarily, no. I have read plenty of diary entries
20in which account -- these are the diaries entries I read
21in order to check up on the use you make of them. That is
22what I have done here.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you and your researchers read the entire entries of
24Dr Goebbels' diaries?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Of course not. That would have been absolutely
26impossible. It is an enormously long collection of stuff

.        P-32



 1and that is not what we had to do. Our task was to look
 2at the use you make of certain specific diary entries.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar from the correspondence that has been
 4shown you in discovery that I invited various Goebbels
 5experts, including Dr Frohlich and Dr Friedrich Karbermann
 6and others who have worked on the Goebbels diaries like
 7myself, whether they have come across one single entry
 8which explicitly shows that Adolf Hitler was aware of the
 9homicidal killings of the Jews in the Goebbels diaries?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     The answer is no, there is no such entry?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not accept that.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you not seen this correspondence?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, sorry. The correspondence yes, but I do not accept
15the conclusion that you make of it.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     You accept that they have read the diaries, unlike you, in
17their totality, but you do not accept what they say?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Ah, sorry. I thought you were saying that is what you
19said. Then in that case you have to show me a letter in
20Dr. Frohlich says that he has never seen such a----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us short circuit this. Are you aware of
22any explicit acceptance, or document which shows explicit
23knowledge on Hitler's part of the extermination programme?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I think there is evidence in the diaries that he did
25know. In this particular entry, when Goebbels says, "The
26Fuhrer is the persistent pioneer and spokesman of a

.        P-33



 1radical solution", what else can he mean, except some
 2degree of extermination, 60 per cent extermination, or
 3more? He cannot mean at this stage, March 1942, that a
 4radical solution is simply deporting them to the East.
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     You read that entry, just to summarize it, as Goebbels
 6saying that what Globocnik is up to is in accordance with
 7what the Fuhrer wants done?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Hitler indeed has been a pioneer, persistent pioneer, of
 9this radical solution.
10 MR IRVING:     Do you agree ----
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     One can also look at the entry of 30th May 1942, which
12I cite at length in the letter of revision to my report
13that I sent on 10th January this year. Here again,
14I think there is a clear indication that this is recording
15a meeting of Hitler with Goebbels, a meeting between
16Hitler and Goebbels, where at the first paragraph Goebbels
17says that he presents the Fuhrer with his plan to evacuate
18the Jews out of Berlin with none remaining, Hitler is
19completely of his view, says Goebbels, and goes on to give
20orders and so on. "I plead once again for a more radical
21Jewish policy", this is on 30th May 1942, "whereby I am
22just pushing at an open door with the Fuhrer".
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have left out quite bit, have you not?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I will read the whole passage if you really want me
25to. I am trying to short things a bit. He goes on in the
26next paragraph to then say, "An extermination of criminals

.        P-34



 1is also a necessity of state policy", thus implying quite
 2clearly in the previous paragraph that he has been talking
 3about the extermination of Jews. So that is another
 4indication to my mind.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     As you have raised this particular entry, will you go to
 6the bundle I gave you this morning and turn to page 2?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is sometimes quite helpful that you go off on these
 9excursions. Is that pages of the Goebbels diary?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, do you have this particular document?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do, yes. Thank you very much.
13 MR IRVING:     Is this diary a typescript diary on the large Adolf
14Hitler typewriter, or the large face typewriter?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is certainly large, unless it has been enlarged.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     So this time Dr Goebbels was dictating the diary to his
17private secretary, Richard Otty, is that right, the
18stenographer?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I think so.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     He did so since July 1941, did he not?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     So this is not in any sense a private diary any more full
23of top secrets. It is an official diary he is keeping?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not think it is an official diary. I think it is
25a private diary. There are certain things that he might
26feel he cannot say in it, which he could say when he was

.        P-35



 1writing it down in his own hand, but it is still a private
 2diary.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was the Final Solution in its homicidal sense something
 4that was top state secret, and not to be written down in
 5private diaries or official diaries?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Which do you mean? Official diaries or private diaries?
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Look at the first page, page 2 in my little bundle. You
 8will see that it starts off with, "Yesterday the military
 9situation:".
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, he always start off like that.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     It does not look like a private diary, does it?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He always starts off with the military situation. It is a
13private diary. He keeps tabs on the military situation.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     On page 3, the last three lines, "The Fuhrer has returned
15from his headquarters to Berlin to speak to an officers'
16course in the Sport Palace". So Hitler has come to
17Berlin and Goebbels grabs the opportunity to have one of
18his rare meetings with him?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is right.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     The next page is the part you then began reading?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 4, line 3?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     "I briefed the Fuhrer once more on my plan, to evacuate
25the Jews completely from Berlin"?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

.        P-36



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why does he have to do it "once more"? Why did not Hitler
 2leap at it and say, "Yes, sure, why are we waiting, what
 3are we waiting for?" Why does Goebbels have to keep on
 4putting this to Hitler if there was any eagerness on
 5Hitler's part to deal with the Jews?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Because some were remaining, and it is a new situation
 7which seems to have emerged which has alarmed Goebbels,
 8and which he goes on at some length about later in the
 9entry.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then he continues. "It is entirely my opinion", gives
11Speers the job, "to take care as quickly as possible that
12the Jews who are working in the German arms factories,
13arms economy, are replaced by foreign workers"?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then he continues with a piece you left out, "I see a
16major danger in the fact that there are still 40,000 Jews
17in the capital of the Reichs who would have nothing more
18to lose, who are running around free".
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there not a provocation, and is it not just asking for
21assassination attempts, if that kind of thing happens,
22then you cannot sleep safely in your own bed? That is
23roughly what it says, is it not?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     If I turn the page, we have now leapt forward.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

.        P-37



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think this is probably the part that you then begin
 2quoting again. Halfway down, "The Germans take part in
 3subversive movements only when the Jews lead them astray
 4to it. That is why we have to liquidate the Jewish
 5danger, cost what it may. How little the Jews in reality
 6can fit in or assimilate to the Western European life you
 7can see from the fact that, when they are sent back into
 8the Ghetto, they very rapidly become ghettoised again".
 9So he is talking about a geographical movement, is he not,
10they are in Western Europe and we are going to have to
11kick them out?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, but this appears to be taken from Table Talk. The
13point about this entry is that it really subsumes two
14different conversations. The first of these appears to be
15a private conversation between Goebbels and Hitler, where
16he says, "I once more present the Fuhrer with my plan to
17evacuate the Jews out of Berlin".
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     What makes you think that this is ----
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, this is quite explicit. The bit you left out
20I will go on: "Once these outrages or assassination
21attempts break out, then one's life is no longer safe".
22I will carry on reading. "The fact that even 22 year old
23Eastern Jews took part in the latest fire bomb attack
24speaks volumes. Thus I plead once again for a more
25radical Jewish policy whereby I am just pushing at an open
26door with the Fuhrer. The Fuhrer has the opinion that the

.        P-38



 1danger will become greater for us personally the more
 2critical the war situation becomes. We find ourselves in
 3a similar situation to that of the second half of 1932
 4where bashing and stabbing were the order of the day, and
 5one had to take all possible security measures to escape
 6from such a development in one piece".
 7     Then he goes on in a new paragraph, still this
 8conversation with Hitler: "The extermination of criminals
 9is also a necessity of state policy".
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, we have had that already.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me give the German. The German gives actually a very
12strong feeling. Auch die Ausmerzung der Verbrechers:
13Literally also the extermination of criminals.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     What does "ausmerzung" mean.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Here it means the extermination -- he goes on to say
16exactly what he means.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     What does "auzmerzung" mean?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Literally "extirpation". It is quite clear what it means
19here. He goes on to say, "Should the war situation become
20very dangerous at any time the prisoners will have in any
21case to be emptied through liquidations so that the danger
22does not arise at their one day opening their doors to let
23the revolting mob loose upon the people". That is quite
24clear there that he means by "ausmerzung" it is linked to
25liquidations and those two are linked to the previous
26paragraph.

.        P-39



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     I appreciate why you are putting all this material in, but
 2can we now come back to my question?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, because you do not like this material being brought
 4to anyone's attention do you, Mr Irving? You left it out
 5in your work.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Evans, you are reading from a
 7translation. Where are you reading from?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am reading from pages 8-9 of the letter I sent on 10th
 9January, my Lord.
10 MR IRVING:     I would prefer if we adhere to my
11cross-examination.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Pause a moment, Mr Irving. Your letter of
13what date?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     10th January 2000, with amendments to my report.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yet another file which it is not very easy to find one's
16way through. Can anyone help me? I am looking in what is
17called Evans 2.
18 MR RAMPTON:     I think your Lordship might have put this, because
19it is amendments to the original report, in the front or
20the back of the main report. That is where I have put
21it.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Quite right.
23 MR IRVING:     I really have to protest about these time wasting
24tactics of the witness throughout the last week.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, it does not help. This is in fact
26my fault if it is anybody's fault. I am trying to recall

.        P-40



 1where the translation is.
 2 MR IRVING:     It disrupts the flow of the cross-examination, and
 3I am sure this is not the intention of the witness but it
 4is certainly the effect.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You will have to bear with me for a moment.
 6Yes?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Then may I just go on very briefly, my Lord?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I was about to point out the passage in the third
10paragraph of the Goebbels diaries after the again rather
11revealing sentence, "Therefore one must liquidate the
12Jewish danger", there is that word "liquidate" again.
13Then it appears to be almost identical to an account in
14the table talk for the same day. So Goebbels seems then
15to be switching over to summarizing what Hitler is saying
16in a much larger circle, during a meal, and about how
17little the Jews can assimilate themselves to West European
18life, and so on and so forth. There of course then he
19engages, as Hitler customarily does in the table talk, in
20a much less direct kind of language, and a more vague kind
21of description. Hence he then starts to go on about
22settling the Jews in central Africa and so on.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, Mr Irving.
24 MR IRVING:     I am being enormously patient. We will come back
25to the line of cross-examination. Can I refer you back to
26page 5 of the little bundle? We just looked at the

.        P-41



 1passage, you will remember (44 at the top, handwritten 5
 2at the bottom). I will continue: "That is why you have
 3to liquidate the Jewish danger, whatever it may cost. How
 4little that the Jews are able to assimilate themselves to
 5western European life you see from the fact that, as soon
 6as they are sent back to the ghetto, they very rapidly
 7become ghettoised again". I do hope we are not going to
 8have any more discursions or excursions now.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Carry on with the question.
10 MR IRVING:     Yes. Over the page: "Western European
11civilisation is for them just an external veneer". Then
12he goes on to talk about the fact that among the Jews
13there are elements who go to work with a dangerous
14brutality and vengeance: "This is why the Fuhrer also
15does not want that they are sent to Siberia, that they are
16evacuated to Siberia". The that word "evacuiert" there is
17quite clearly geographical, is it not, not homicidal?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not necessarily, no. The word evacuiert is quite
19frequently used.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     You cannot say "killed to Siberia," can you?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In that context, it must be in its literal
22meaning----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Evacuated to Siberia, the word "evacuation" can sometimes
24mean by this time it can be a camouflage, or the whole
25phrase "evacuating to Siberia" and all the talk about----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but Mr Irving's point is not here.

.        P-42



 1 MR IRVING:     But under the harshest conditions of life they
 2would certainly become a virile element again, would they
 3not, as he says? He would most of all like to send them
 4to Central Africa. How do you translate "am
 5liebsten"? He would rather send them to Central Africa?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He would prefer to send them, or he would most like to
 7send them.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     If it was "prefer", it would be "lieber", would it not?
 9"Am liebsten" is most of all he would like to send them
10to Central Africa?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Most of all he would like to send them, he would most like
12to.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Most of all, above what? Above Siberia? Above the East?
14Above Riga and Minsk? Most of all he wants to send them
15to Central Africa? Is this what Adolf Hitler is really
16about, as reported by Goebbels?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. He seems to be saying that, and he says exactly the
18same in his table talk.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     You rather toned it down in your translation by saying he
20would rather send them to Central Africa, did you not?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think that is toning it down at all, Mr Irving.
22It is clear from my translation what his preference is, or
23what he claims his preference is rather, in this rather
24camouflaged conversation at the dining table.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     There they would live in a climate that would certainly
26make them strong and resistance or resistive again. At

.        P-43



 1any rate it is the Fuhrer's aim, and I am translating very
 2loosely as I go along, at any rate it is the Fuhrer's aim
 3to make Western Europe completely free of the Jews?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Here they may not have a national home any more?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     So he is talking purely geography, is he not? He is not
 8talking gas chambers, if I can put it like that. He is
 9talking geography. He is saying well, the East, Siberia,
10Africa, anywhere but Western Europe.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes I think this is----
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is real Hitler. This is not Goebbels. This is not
13his gloss, is it?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, nor is the previous account of what Hitler is
15saying. As I say, he is here at the dining table and he
16is really camouflaging. This is camouflage language.
17Quite a number of subjects, as you have said yourself,
18Mr Irving, were taboo at the dining table. Hitler talked
19in very vague terms and on pages 10 to 11 of my letter of
2010th January I quote the table talk for that day at some
21length, which is almost exactly ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     You quote everything at some length.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     You quote everything at some length.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is not a helpful intervention.
26 MR IRVING:     We are very short of time, my Lord, and this has

.        P-44



 1taken far longer----
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The problem is, Mr Irving, I have to quote things at
 3length because you leave so much out that is inconvenient
 4to your thesis.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us skip the argument and get on with the
 6questions and the answers.
 7 MR IRVING:     Do you agree that the Final Solution was top state
 8secret in its homicidal sense, that all the SS documents
 9and the documents generated by the SS gangsters were top
10state secret?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Those are two rather different questions, or points.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     What I am asking about is this. Is this diary being
13dictated to a Civil Servant, a lowly Civil Servant, and
14every day Goebbels is taking him out at the beginning of
15every morning and spending, sometimes it is 150 pages long
16for one day, this diary?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is one likely, therefore, to be able to put, with any
19safety, a homicidal interpretation on any passages in the
20diary if it was top state secret?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     One assumes that, like all secretaries, he was pledged to
22confidentiality.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I ask you a slightly different question
24because I am not sure I understand this. The original
25part, the first part, of this diary entry you say is
26private diary entry in the ordinary sense of that term?

.        P-45



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Suddenly in the middle of it you say Goebbels sort of
 3flips into reproducing the table talk of the 29th May?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not reproducing, my Lord. He is really summarizing
 5two different conversations, one he has had with Hitler
 6alone it appears, or in a very small group of people, and
 7the second one simply goes on seamlessly.
 8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is what is so odd about it, why should he go on
 9seamlessly to do that when it is inconsistent with what is
10in the earlier part, which you say is straight forward
11diarising?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It seems strange, but I think there are similarities
13between what he says there in the second part of that, and
14the table talk. They are too striking to allow of any
15other conclusion.
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I accept that, but what strikes me as odd is that he
17should reproduce in his diary camouflage language used by
18Hitler in his table talk.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     These are the golden words of his Fuhrer. He will put
20them down because he has heard them to preserve them for
21posterity.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But they do not mean what they say?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
24 MR IRVING:     You are saying that the whole of this talk about
25Siberia and central Africa and so on is hog wash?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

.        P-46



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you have any evidence for that kind of thought? Is
 2that just your speculation again?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The evidence is what is going on at the same time. We are
 4talking now the end of May 1942 ----
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     And the killings have started, have they not?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     They had more than started, gassings and death camps are
 7in full swing.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     So either Hitler is totally in the dark as to what is
 9going on, or he is the biggest hypocrite there has been?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would go for the second of those two alternatives, Mr
11Irving.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you have any evidence for that apart from your own gut
13feeling?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is quite clear.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Even one line, even one document?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I have already quoted two. Again, comparing the two
17halves of this diary entry, when he links the
18extermination of criminals, the liquidations of prisoners,
19to his earlier talk about the evacuation of the Jews.
20Even here Goebbels is using words like evacuation, but it
21is a give away in the second paragraph.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yet at about the same time at the end of March, early
23April, we have had Schlegelberger document, Hitler wanting
24everything postponed until the war was over?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We have already been through this document at great
26length, Mr Irving, I do not accept what you say about the

.        P-47



 1so-called Schlegelberger memorandum.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was it not typical of Hitler's desire to postpone tricky
 3things until the war was over, until the fighting had
 4stopped? Did he not do that with several problems?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not see this in this diary entry.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you please look at page 7, and then you will see it?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Page 7 of what? Yours?
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Numbered page 60 at the top.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     I will read to you the middle paragraph in English. We
11briefly then touch upon the church question. Here the
12Fuhrer has reached a decision which is absolutely
13irreversible. He tells me to take care that nothing is
14done, that there is complete silence about the church
15question.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Public silence.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     The hour would come when we would then be able to speak
18more clearly than ever. Is this not another example of
19Hitler saying, "hey, put that on the back burner, too"?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think this derives from the problems which they had in
21the previous autumn with Cardinal von Galen. After some
22discussion, it was decided, Cardinal von Galen's protest
23about the euthanasia, the Nazi leadership decided that
24during the war it would be too upsetting to morale to make
25a serious attack on the church and start arresting
26cardinals and the like.

.        P-48



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     I refer you to page 404, to footnote 22 ----
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is my report?
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Of your report.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 404, footnote 22, of your report where you show the
 6kind of problems the Final Solution was causing, mixed
 7marriages, you remember the Gotshalt case, the suicide of
 8the entire family and so on, and Hitler saying to Goebbels
 9try to avoid causing problems?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. We already discussed this at length in talking about
11the so-called Schlegelberger memorandum that, while
12I think the Nazi leadership had little problem in deciding
13what to do with the vast majority of Jews in Europe, i.e.
14kill them, they had a lot of difficulties in deciding what
15to do with Jews in mixed marriages, married to non-Jews
16and with half Jews, and mixed, so-called mixed race Jews.
17That is quite clear. It runs through all
18the documentation connected with the so-called
19Schlegelberger memorandum, and here it is again.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     You rely in your reply to this Goebbels entry on page 402,
21paragraph 5, you refer to a July 1941 statement by Hitler
22about the Jewish family becoming a breeding ground for
23bacilli, do you remember that?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, "Bazillenherd fur eine neue Zersetzung".
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you agree that at that time, of course, there was no
26plan to liquidate Europe's Jews, it was still a

.        P-49



 1geographical solution, so that is totally irrelevant in
 2this context, is it not?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think it is irrelevant, no. It is a general
 4statement, rather like his statement in a speech of 30th
 5January 1939 ----
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     You put it in as a bit of a red herring.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, it is a very conditional statement.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Hoping that ----
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is an "if" statement.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- we would not remember that your argument is that
11Hitler's speech to the Gauleiters in December 1941 was the
12trigger point. So July 1941, that is totally irrelevant
13to the argument about Hitler's homicidal intent?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think it is irrelevant to Hitler's general hatred
15of the Jews. I am using it there because of this popular,
16this favourite phrase or word of "bacilli".
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     The next question is on page 403, two lines from the
18bottom, and I ask this with great trepidation because it
19may unleash another torrent, you say: "Why did include",
20why did Goebbels include, "so many passages in his diaries
21which showed that he himself favoured the mass
22extermination of Jews?" Where are these many passages,
23which ones are you referring to? I cannot think of the
24"mass extermination of Jews" referred to in many passages
25in the Goebbels' diaries.
26 MR RAMPTON:     I think Mr Irving should ask questions and not

.        P-50



 1make speeches, my Lord.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well ...
 3 MR IRVING:     Is this ----
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The question you are being asked is where do
 5you say Goebbels shows himself to favour the extermination
 6of Jews?
 7 MR IRVING:     "Mass extermination of Jews". The fact that he
 8said, "We cannot have Jews running around Berlin who may
 9assassinate me", that kind of thing, is readily proved,
10but it is these throw away lines that are put into the
11report without footnotes or source notes that concern me.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I will treat that as a question even though in a way
13it was not. It is on page 400, again talking about 60 per
14cent of the Jews being liquidated. Now, that seems to me
15on any measure mass extermination.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Because you say he is quite clearly approving
17what he is describing?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. It seem to be pretty clear, and he goes on to say
19that Hitler approved of it as well.
20 MR IRVING:     I guess the question ----
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me have, let me have another ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- I am really asking is, is there another passage apart
23from that?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     All right, well, let us just go...
25 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, this is very unfair. This is not a
26memory test. This gentleman has written a detailed

.        P-51



 1report. He summarizes what he is talking about on pages
 2410 to 416 of his report. I am sorry that he did not
 3remember it, but, I mean, really!.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I just got to there. I think I will just direct you to
 5the Goebbels diaries entries on page 412, 414, Jews
 6experiencing their own annihilation, I mean, I really do
 7not want to read all of these out.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do please, if you do not mind, 412, 414?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     14, then the pages 8, 9 of my letter of 10th January, so
10these are some ...
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, what is not clear at the moment to
12me, partly because of that question, is whether you are
13contesting the fact that Goebbels knew perfectly well what
14was going on.
15 MR IRVING:     What I am contesting is that there are many
16passages in his diary which showed that he applauded the
17mass extermination of Jews which is the wording used by
18this witness in his report, but I will now move on ----
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Now would you answer my question? Is it your
20case that Goebbels did not know about the mass
21exterminations that were going on at this time?
22 MR IRVING:     He had visited the Baltic states. He had actually
23heard about executions that had gone on there, just
24briefly. That was November 1941. He had received this SD
25report. He had received the Wannsee Conference report
26which was ambiguous. He had received this SD report on

.        P-52



 1March 27th 1942 which gives him cause to speculate on what
 2is obviously happening, if I can put it like that.
 3THE WITNESS: But in Hitler's War 1977, Mr Irving, you write:
 4"The ghastly secrets of Auschwitz and Treblinka were
 5well-kept. Goebbels wrote a frank summary of them in his
 6diary on March 27th 1942, but evidently held his tongue
 7when he met Hitler two days later".
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And you talk again in that 1991 in a similar way so...
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I draw your attention, therefore, to a passage in
11Picker, Henry Picker, on April 4th 1942 which you are
12probably familiar with. I will read it to you. It was
13"characteristic that the upper classes who had never
14shown the slightest sympathy for the suffering and plight
15of the German emigres", and he uses the word "aus
16wanderer", and you will understand why I am emphasising
17that?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     "... now claim to show sympathy for the Jews, although the
20Jews had their accomplices around the entire world and
21were the most climate hardened species there were. The
22Jews prospered everywhere", he said, "in even Lapland and
23Siberia". Does this not also show that on April 4th 1942
24Hitler is talking purely in terms of his geographical
25solution? It may have been a pipe dream.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, no, it does not. I mean, there are murderous

.        P-53



 1statements here. He is attacking the so-called
 2bourgeoisie, and even here it says, "If for reasons of
 3State, one renders a definite racial pest harmless, for
 4example, by beating him to death", very nice, "then the
 5entire bourgeoisie cries out that the State is a violent
 6State. If, however, the Jew", and here, well, "the Jew
 7with judicial chicanery robs the German person of his
 8professional existence, takes his house and home from him,
 9destroys his family and finally drives him to emigration,
10and the German person then loses his life on the journey
11to his emigration destination, then the bourgeoisie ...
12(reading to the words) ... entire tragedy has been played
13out within the context of the possibilities offered by the
14law." And earlier on, of course -- that, of course,
15describes in a kind of upside-down way precisely what the
16Nazis were doing to the Jews themselves. And on talking
17about -- another bit that you left out, Mr Irving, he is
18talking about Hitler (again absurdly) that "the
19Bourgeoisie did not concern itself with the fact that
20250,000 to 300,000 German people were emigrating from
21Germany a year", that meant, I think, in the late 19th
22century, "and about 75 per cent of the German emigrants to
23Australia already died during the journey". That is more
24even than Goebbels 60 per cent. Emigration here, in
25Hitler's mind ----
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     So what conclusions do you draw from these lengthy

.        P-54



 1passages you are reading out?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Emigration in Hitler's mind here is quite clearly
 3connected with mass death.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is the conclusion? Purely that emigration is
 5connected with mass death?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It seems be in this passage, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you agree that Hitler was considering geographical
 8emigration every time he mentions these passages at this
 9time?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, connected with mass death. I mean, you take Jews
11from France or Serbia or Greece and you take them to
12Poland, that is mass emigration, but that is not all that
13happened, is it? They were killed when they got there.
14The two things are connected.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you are saying that when Hitler is talking about them
16emigrating to Lapland or Siberia or Central Africa, or all
17these other places he is talking about, or Madagascar,
18what he is saying is he will arrange that they get killed
19when they get there? What is the point of the emigration
20then?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. There is also an element of camouflage in simply
22using the term "emigration" or "transportation", so ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     So your entire case depends on the fact that when he says
24one thing he means another ----
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Wait a minute, Mr Irving. I mean, also the notion that in
26the middle of 1942 that Hitler was actually serious

.        P-55



 1about ----
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Madagascar?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- transporting Jews to Madagascar is absurd because he
 4had already personally ordered the stop to the Madagascar
 5programme at the beginning of the year and, as for
 6Lapland, that is even more ridiculous or Siberia. I mean,
 7this is just camouflage in his case.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why would the Madagascar plan have been absurd then?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we have been through that many times.
10 MR IRVING:     My Lord, we have one more document I wish to show
11him, my Lord. Would you please go, therefore, to page 23
12of the bundle? Do you know who Hassow van Evstorf was?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You tell me. I cannot see him mentioned.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Hassow van Evstorf was the later Ambassador to the United
15Kingdom after the war. So he was not a neo-Nazi, was he?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not -- where is this?
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     I just say that in advance.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 23.
19 MR IRVING:     Does your Lordship have it?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
21 MR IRVING:     It is the transcript of Hassow van Evstorf.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is van Evstorf's notes?
23 MR IRVING:     My Lord, Hassow van Evstorf's notes are actually in
24this blue volume I am holding in my hand. This is from my
25own archive. Hassow van Evstorf took handwritten notes as
26the liaison officer between Ribbentrop and the German High

.        P-56



 1Command, so he was informed on an immediate basis of all
 2the latest developments and secret happenings. Two
 3paragraphs from the bottom, he had a paragraph -- this is
 4the transcript of his handwritten notes, April 4th 1942 --
 5"A Japanese enquiry whether they will be permitted to
 6occupy Madagascar", completing, no doubt, the triangle
 7Singapore, Columbia, Madagascar,"has been answered in a
 8positive sense. We would not take part in the operation.
 9We are looking for a joint coalition warfare in the
10Persian Gulf" -----
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry. The significance of that totally
12escapes me.
13 MR IRVING:     Well, I shall ask some more questions. Was Japan
14an ally of Nazi Germany?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     So if Japan had occupied Madagascar, as was envisaged by
17this joint operation by this top level discussion between
18the German High Command and the Japanese High Command,
19then, of course, it would have been perfectly feasible to
20have completed the Madagascar plan?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think that is rather a large leap, Mr Irving.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     So the talk of the fact that ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That depends.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- Madagascar in May 1942 was occupied by the British is
25neither here more there?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The point here is on 10th February 1942 (and we have

.        P-57



 1already been through this some days ago) the Foreign
 2official who proposed the plan for deporting the Jews to
 3Madagascar wrote that "Gruppenfuhrer Heydrich has been
 4charged with the Fuhrer of carrying out the solution to
 5the Jewish question in Europe. The war against the Soviet
 6Union has opened up the possibility of placing other
 7territories at our disposal for the Final Solution.
 8Accordingly, the Fuhrer has decided that the Jews should
 9be pushed off, not to Madagascar, but to the East.
10Madagascar, therefore, does not need to be foreseen for
11the Final Solution any more".
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are familiar with that document?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is absolutely clear and explicit about the ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask you some questions about who wrote that
15document?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     -- that is from Rademacher.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Who wrote the document?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Rademacher.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did Rademacher ever once in his life have a meeting with
20Hitler?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He says here, "The Fuhrer has decided" ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you answer my question?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Time and again, Mr Irving, if you do not like a document,
24you start saying, "It is a product of his imagination".
25This is quite clearly ----
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Answer my question.

.        P-58



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- this is not a top Foreign Office official. It is
 2quite conceivable that Ribbentrop or somebody else has
 3told him that this is Hitler's decision. It does not need
 4to see Hitler to have this decision here. Hitler has
 5decided in February 1942 that the Madagascar plan is out.
 6It is quite clearly not practical.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is very difficult to conduct a cross-examination if you
 8do not answer my questions. Did Rademacher ever see
 9Hitler?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the answer i Professor Evans does
11not know, but the point he has made (and you may not
12accept it, Mr Irving) is that does not need to have seen
13Hitler in order to know and to say that Hitler has time
14and again said "Madagascar is off the menu". That is what
15he said.
16 MR IRVING:     May I by my questions now elicit the probable
17source of Rademacher's information? In view of the fact
18that the Rademacher document is in the same file as the
19Wannsee Conference report, right?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not likely, in fact, that Rademacher had simply read
22the Wannsee Conference report in which precisely this
23concept was stated by Heydrich that they are now going to
24be shipping them out to the east, and that Rademacher is
25doing no more than just putting into another document what
26he has read in the Wannsee report. It is nothing to do

.        P-59



 1with direct information from Hitler. This is now third or
 2fourth hand information?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I not say it was direct information from Hitler, but,
 4nevertheless, I do not think that people in Third Reich
 5spoke so or wrote so, explicitly wrote in memos so
 6explicitly about Hitler's orders and decisions unless they
 7had very good reason for doing so.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     And yet you cannot ----
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     They did not invent these things.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     You cannot wish away that July 24th 1942 table talk by
11Hitler in which he says, "We are going to send them to
12Madagascar". So Madagascar is wrong and this table talk
13is right or is it the other way around?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is the other way around. The table talk is quite clear
15camouflage. Hitler has commented on the table talk on
1613th May 1942 that England is not going to surrender
17Madagascar. He knows that perfectly well ----
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     There were all sorts of places that England was not going
19to surrender ----
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is a total fiction. It is a total fiction.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are talking over the witness and I
22personally think Madagascar is a bit of a side track, and
23I think we have had enough on Madagascar.
24 MR IRVING:     I strongly agree, but the suggestion that England
25could say, "We are not going to surrender", do you
26remember a place called Singapore which was surrendered to

.        P-60



 1the Japanese.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is rather a different matter.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It did not happen in Madagascar, Mr Irving.
 4Why do we not get back to what you were on before which is
 5really more, I think, central?
 6 MR IRVING:     I agree, but occasionally these little excursions
 7are inflicted on me. Page 405 of your report, please.
 8You are stating that, "I did not publish the passage from
 9Goebbels diary" -- this is towards the end of paragraph
101.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     "'We speak in conclusion about the Jewish question. Here
13the Fuhrer remains, now as before, unrelenting. The Jews
14must get out of Europe, if necessary, with the application
15of the most brutal means'"?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     What inference do you draw from that -- a homicidal
18inference?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     At this time, in March 1942, it is very difficult to draw
20any other inference than that.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     It was not the midnight knock of the Gestapo and
22instructions to get packed within two hours and you are
23only allowed to carry 28 pounds with you, and bring all
24your money and valuables -- was that not pretty brutal and
25unrelenting?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Pretty brutal, yes.

.        P-61



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Pages 405 to 6 ----
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The question, Mr Irving, is really about your omission of
 3the statement that the Fuhrer is unrelenting.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     But I also omitted the part where it says that the Jews
 5must get out of Europe which would have counterbalanced
 6it ----
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "With the application of the most brutal means".
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     At the top of page 406, you quite rightly point out that I
 9have a date, March 20th, when it should have been March
1030th, is that right?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you concede that that is immaterial?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I will not, most certainly not.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why is it not immaterial?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, because, let me go back to what you say in 1977,
16Hitler's War: "Ghastly secrets of Auschwitz and Treblinka
17were well kept. Goebbels wrote a frank summary of them in
18his diary on March 27 1942, but evidently held his tongue
19when he met Hitler two days later for he quotes only
20Hitler's remark, 'The Jews must get out of Europe. If
21need be, we must resort to the most brutal methods'.".
22     So, you maintain that he made that statement
23about, which I just quoted, two days after Goebbels wrote
24this summary on March 27th. In fact, what you are trying
25to do is to give the impression -- let me just find where
26I am on my notes.

.        P-62



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would it surprise you to hear that the error has been ----
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Please let the witness answer.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What you do is to quote Hitler, "The Jews must get out of
 4Europe" from the diary of 20th March as if it was from
 530th March, in other words, he made that statement before
 6Goebbels made a frank summary. It is true that Goebbels
 7made a frank summary of the extermination in March, but it
 8is not true that he concealed it when he met Hitler two
 9days later because the quote that you use to support your
10view that Hitler did not know about it after this frank
11summary on 27th March is lifted from a week earlier in the
12diary and not from two days later where it is not there.
13So I do think this is a clear piece of manipulation. This
14diary is written in chronological order. It is very
15difficult to get that date wrong.
16 MR IRVING:     Would it surprise you to hear that the error has
17been corrected in the later editions completely ----
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I know that the error has been corrected in the later
19edition.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you not interrupt me -- completely painlessly and
21without the slightest damage to the arguments that I have
22advanced?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It has been corrected in the later -- in the 1991 edition,
24but, of course, there you omit all mention of the "ghastly
25secrets of Auschwitz and Treblinka" because you do not
26believe they existed, these secrets any more, whatever

.        P-63



 1they are, and it makes it easier in 1991 for you because
 2you deny the gas chambers and also it has all been done on
 3the initiative of Himmler and Goebbels, so ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we try to keep to the actual question that I am asking
 5or we are not going to cover the ground today. Would you
 6look at page 408, the footnote -- 407, the footnote?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, in order to answer the question about your changing
 8the text in 1991, one has to give the context. Here again
 9what you do not omit is the idea that Goebbels was
10concealing this information from Hitler. This time you,
11in fact, make it more general. You uncouple it from any
12specific meeting.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am afraid I must have a look at that? Have
14you got the page there?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That again is in my letter of 10th of ----
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But have you got the page reference in ----
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Hitler's War.
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     --- 1991 of Hitler's War?
19 MR RAMPTON:     It is page 464. It is in the second part, my
20Lord.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     464.
22 MR RAMPTON:     It is a paragraph which starts: "Dr Goebbels,
23agitating from Berlin". It goes down to the end of the
24paragraph at 465.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Here it says, "Although he held", that is Goebbels, "his
26tongue when meeting his Fuhrer" which suggests on every

.        P-64



 1occasion that he met him he held his tongue about, well...
 2 MR IRVING:     What he knew?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What he knew, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you have any evidence otherwise?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, we have already been through this.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, do you have any evidence in any of the files that
 7Goebbels told Hitler: "Mein Fuhrer, there is something
 8I have to tell you that I have found out"?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we have had that, and I think the
10answer is there are two documents to which you point
11Professor Evans to support his contention that Hitler
12knew, had been told by Goebbels.
13 MR IRVING:     No, Goebbels telling Hitler which is something
14slightly different, my Lord.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There are those two documents. We had this
16point a little while ago, did we not?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, we have dealt with it.
18 MR IRVING:     Which arguments are you referring to, Professor?
19I have to know what I am answering here. Which documents
20are you referring to? Goebbels telling Hitler about the
21Final Solution ----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Do I really have to go through this again?
23 MR IRVING:     --- in a homicidal sense.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If can find it, I will just -- if you know
25the dates of the documents, we are not going to go through
26them again, but I do not have them. One is 30th ----

.        P-65



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     27th March and 30th May, I think, from memory.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     30th May is one and 27th March?
 3 MR IRVING:     The one that I gave you as the facsimile, your
 4Lordship?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We can go all over it again, Mr Irving, but
 6we have ----
 7 MR IRVING:     I do not really want to, but I cannot allow this
 8court assumes that this final gap has been bridged by the
 9bald statement that there are ----
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The court is not assuming anything; it is
11listening to what Professor Evans has said and he has said
12that one document is 30th May ----
13 MR IRVING:     Which is the ----
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- and the other is 27th March. You know
15which those two documents are. You may not agree with
16what Professor Evans says, but you know why he says what
17he does.
18 MR IRVING:     But 3rd May is the Siberian one and that is the
19exact opposite?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry...
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     All right. We will go through it all over
22the again.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     29th May, yes.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     29th May.
25 MR IRVING:     29th May?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. That is the diary entry of 30th May for the previous

.        P-66



 1day.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you give me the page reference in your
 3report?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is pages 8 to 9 of my supplementary letter, my Lord.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What do you want to ask about that,
 6Mr Irving? 30th May 1942.
 7 MR IRVING:     30th May 1942, is this?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is the passage that we went through about 20 minutes
10ago.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is exactly what I have just suggested,
13that we have actually been through these two documents in
14some detail. Do we need to go back and go through them
15all over again?
16 MR IRVING:     No, I do not because I would not accept that this
17is evidence of Goebbels telling Hitler about a homicidal
18Final Solution.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I follow you do not accept it, but Professor
20Evans says the opposite, you see.
21 MR IRVING:     But this is what I call the Siberia reference which
22showed is exactly the opposite sense, and unless one
23assumes that evacuating Siberia is a euphemism for
24killing?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am very loath to go into this all over again, my Lord.
26I think it is clear.

.        P-67



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you just state simply ----
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the benefit? We have been through
 3this. I can go back and get it up on the screen, but we
 4have been through this document in some detail.
 5 MR IRVING:     We have indeed, but can I just ask ----
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know what you say about it, I know what
 7Professor Evans says about it and, in the end, I have to
 8decide what a sensible, objective historian would make of
 9it.
10 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, one simple question then and I
11hope you can answer yes or no, is your belief that the
12phrase evacuating to Siberia and evacuating to Lapland are
13euphemisms for killing when used by Hitler?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I cannot this yes or no because that is not the key
15passage in this entry of 30th May 1942. The key passages
16come earlier.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then we will move on. Will you now look at the footnote
18on pages 407 and 408?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I apologise for the glitch in the word processor
20there.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     It actually begins five lines from the bottom, does it
22not?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, it has repeated a whole lot.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     On the second line from the bottom, you find the words
25"auswanderten" and "auswanderer", is that right?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where are you, Mr Irving?

.        P-68



 1 MR IRVING:     I Professor Evans' report.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You must remember that I have to follow what
 3you are putting.
 4 MR IRVING:     I am moving too fast, my Lord. 407 to 408. We are
 5looking at the footnote that begins on the foot of page
 6407. My simple question is two lines from the bottom,
 7does the witness see the words "auswanderten" and
 8"auswanderer" and it follows over, two lines down on the
 9same footnote on the facing page, "Auswanderung" and
10"Auswanderungsziel".
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     How would you translate the root "auswanderer" there,
13"emigrate" or "kill"?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We have already been through this.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, just a simple answer will ----
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I cannot give a simple answer because it is a loaded
17question. That is the problem with your questions,
18Mr Irving. I have already been through this document and
19I have noted that when Hitler states that Germans
20emigrated, which is the meaning of the word "auswanderer",
21from Germany in the 19th century, in his view 75 per cent
22of them died. It is a deadly process. We have no
23evidence for that. It is a completely absurd idea, they
24did not, but that is his view of emigration. There is a
25clear connection there.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but do you ----

.        P-69



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And then he goes on to talk about the way in which he
 2thought that Jews drove Germans to emigrate in a way that
 3describes exactly the way, in fact, that the Germans drove
 4the Jews to emigrate.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is purely and etymological exercise, Professor. How
 6would you translate then "Jewish emigration" in the
 7emigrating sense, not the killing sense?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I mean, you enter reservations about the point of
 9indulging in purely etymological exercises ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you just answer the question? Would it be "Juden
11Auswanderung"?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- given the misuse that you make of them. But, of
13course, it means "emigration". I have said that
14repeatedly. That is the literal meaning of the word
15"Auswanderung".
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     What German word would you use for "Jewish emigration"?
17"Juden Auswanderung"?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Something like that, yes, "Judische Auswanderung",
19whatever.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that not precisely the word used in the September 1942
21document that we are going to be looking at later?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, let us have a look at it.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we tackle things in sequence, Professor ----
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, you are the one who introduced the September
25document, Mr Irving, I did not.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- otherwise we are not going to complete today. We will

.        P-70



 1come to that document in sequence and in the order that
 2I dictate and not the order that you dictate.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You have just said you want to discuss it now, Mr Irving.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am discussing it now.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Now you are accusing me of bringing it up out of
 6sequence. This is ridiculous.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is all degenerating.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am discussing it now ----
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Evans, do not be provoked and,
10Mr Irving, can we try to get on?
11 MR IRVING:     Yes.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is very hard, my Lord.
13 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the reason I did it here is because in
14this one footnote the word "Auswanderer" is used five or
15six times in the clearly emigrating sense.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have been over this many times.
17"Auswanderung" can be used euphemistically, but it is not
18always used euphemistically.
19 MR IRVING:     It is a rubber word.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But can I ask just about a general question
21which I think can be answered quite briefly? The table
22talk on page 407 of your report and the Goebbels diary
23entry on page 408 talk in terms of getting the Jews out of
24Europe?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Do you regard either of those documents because that is

.        P-71



 1what they are, as being on their face sinister?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I do, my Lord. I mean, I think by this time ----
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Because it is euphemistic or for some other reason?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is euphemistic and particularly in the table talk in
 5May 1942 this linkage of mass death with emigration, not
 6to mention the statements about beating racial pests to
 7death. I mean, they are wrapped up -- he is, of course,
 8trying to be euphemistic and then spins these ridiculous
 9fantasies about the climatic, supposed climatic,
10resilience of Jews and so on. But they are both rather
11sinister, particularly when you take into account what was
12happening in the extermination camps at this time.
13 MR IRVING:     With respect, I suggest the word "sinister" is
14wrong. "Homicidal" is probably what his Lordship meant.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I was using a euphemism as well, if you like,
16but I thought everybody understood what the term meant.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I certainly did.
18 MR IRVING:     But would you not expect precisely this kind of
19conversation to happen around the dinner table if somebody
20said, "Adolf, we are getting word from the BBC and from
21Voice of America, whatever it is, that killings are
22happening and that the Jews are dying like flies in the
23East", whereupon Hitler says, "So what! Look at the way
24our people suffered"? Is it not exactly that kind of
25conversation that you are looking at here? It is a "so
26what" conversation, is it not?

.        P-72



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not sure I follow the argument there.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not Adolf Hitler being tough, talking tough to his
 3dinner table people saying, "Show these people no mercy.
 4Look at how our people suffered when the boot was on the
 5other foot"?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He certainly is saying that, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, in other words, although it is tough talk, it is not
 8necessarily Adolf Hitler saying, "Yes, we are killing them
 9too like flies"?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That does not follow at all, Mr Irving.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, thank you very much.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     When I say "it does not follow at all", I mean your
13conclusion does not follow at all. Let us get that quite
14clear what I mean by that. I think you might have
15misunderstood it. I do not think that because he is
16talking tough, it is just tough talk, that there is a
17reality behind it with which he is quite aware.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but there is no evidence for that in these lines. I
19do not want to start nit-picking, but it is just tough
20talk that is recorded at this dinner table conversation?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, this is the leader of ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Ugly talk?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We can go through it, Mr Irving, if you want
24to, but I have the witness's answer and I know you do not
25agree with it, but I have the witness's answer.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The question is that Goebbels, of course, was quite aware

.        P-73



 1that resettlement meant that the Jews were being killed --
 260 per cent of them were being killed, he says in his
 3diary -- and so why would he have described Hitler's views
 4as being radical and unrelenting if that had only meant
 5emigration? The fact that he knew it involved killing
 6must, surely, have meant that Hitler's views were in
 7favour of yet more killing.
 8 MR IRVING:     On page 410 of your report -- we are slowly chewing
 9our way forward -- line 3, you say there is a large number
10of instances where Hitler spoke openly about
11exterminating ----
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In my letter of 10th January -- I am sorry to
13interrupt ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have withdrawn that, have you?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- I have withdrawn the word "openly", yes. That was
16rather careless.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Very well.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is open to misinterpretation.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Three lines from the bottom of that same page, you quote
20the Goebbels diary: "It would end with the annihilation
21of the Jews". Once again we have that old, familiar,
22rubber word "vernichtung", do we not?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I think "annihilation" is an exact etymological
24translation of that. I tried to be careful to render it
25in that terms. "Nicht" means "nothing", so "vernichtung"
26means "making nothing of" or "annihilation", in other

.        P-74



 1words.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     On page 412 of your expert report we have all those old
 3words again. On line two you have the destruction of the
 4Jewish element, which again is the "Vernichtung" is it
 5not? That is in the Mufti conversation.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. That should mean annihilation then.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     You did not give us the German text of that, did you?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I did not.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you will find that I provided you with the German text
10now?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     To save time, are you prepared to accept that
12is "vernichtung".
13 MR IRVING:     At page 33.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let us have a look at the German text, my Lord. This is
15very easy.
16 MR IRVING:     Page 33 of my bundle. I went to the original
17microfilm last night and transcribed the passage in
18German, so it is "vernichtung" there again?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is "vernichtung". I am quite happy to render
20that as annihilation.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     On December 12th, the indented passage two lines down,
22they would experience their own annihilation. We have
23"vernichtung" again.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     By way of variety, three lines from the bottom, "the
26extirpation of Jewry", that is now "Ausrottung"?

.        P-75



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     We have the whole kaleidoscope of words being used there
 3by the Nazis?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     By Hitler, not by the Nazis.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Over the page, page 413, line 4 of the indented passage,
 6we have once again January 25th 1942. That is just five
 7days after the Wannsee conference, is it not?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     All Hitler is saying is the Jews have to get out of
10Europe. Four lines lower down, "I am just saying, he has
11to go". It does not really very homicidal to me.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Well, read on.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me read out the whole passage.
15 MR IRVING:     Then comes the tough talk.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Of course. When it gets tough, it is just talk. When it
17is not tough, then it is real. That is your view.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     He is not saying we are setting about- he said if they die
19on the way ---?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let the witness read it. Please do not let
21us have this batting backwards and forwards.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Hitler says in this table talk 25th January: "If I take
23the Jews out today, then our bourgeoisie becomes unhappy:
24what is happening then with them? But have the same
25people troubled themselves about what would become of the
26Germans who had to emigrate? One must do it quickly, it

.        P-76



 1is no better if I have one tooth pulled out by a few
 2centimetres" -- he does say centimetres but I think he
 3means millimetres -- "every three months, when it is out,
 4the pain has gone. The Jew has to get out of Europe.
 5Otherwise we get no European understanding. He incites
 6the people the most, everywhere. In the end: I do not
 7know, I am colossally humane. The Jews", carries on
 8Hitler "were maltreated at the time of the Pope's rule in
 9Rome. Up to 1830 eight Jews were driven through the city
10every year with donkeys. I am just saying, he has to
11go". That is, the Jew has to go. "If he collapses in the
12course of it, I can't help there. I only see one thing:
13absolute extermination, if they don't go of their own
14accord. Why should I look at a Jew with other eyes than
15at a Russian prisoner of war? Many are dying in the
16prison camps because we have been driven into this
17situation by the Jews. But what can I do about that? Why
18then did the Jews instigate the war?" So he is
19threatening absolute extermination if the Jews do not go
20of their own accord, and he is talking about the Russian
21prisoners of war, many of them dying in the same context
22as he is talking about Jews. The murderous character of
23that conversation could hardly be clearer.
24 MR IRVING:     What is the phrase for "absolute Ausrottung"? You
25are quite incorrigible. What is the German he uses?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You just said.

.        P-77



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Absolute Ausrottung"?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     You translated that as "absolute extermination"?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Quite clearly it is absolute rooting up, is it not? Have
 6you never had to uproot?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Again, we have had that point. I am well
 8aware of the argument.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is these tendentious translations on which he relies.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think it is a tendentious translation.
11"Ausrottung" means extirpation, uprooting, rooting out or
12total -- if you look up "extirpation" in the Oxford
13English dictionary, you will to try and it will mean----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     And you translate it every time ----
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me finish, Mr Irving. If you look up "extirpation" in
16the Oxford English Dictionary, which you obviously have
17not done, then you will to try and the translations
18include "total destruction". If you look it up in the
19Cassell's 1936 English German dictionary, you will to try
20and "Ausrottungskrieg" is translated as a "war of
21extermination". It is a perfectly legitimate
22translation. There is nothing tendentious about it. In
23connection here with all the things he is saying about
24killing Russian prisoners of war, deaths in the prison
25camp, and so on, it is quite clear what it means.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     He says they are dying, he does not say they are being

.        P-78



 1killed, does he? He says they are dying in the prison
 2camps.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is right.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are calling this extermination. You take the third or
 5fourth meaning of the word.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think it is a reasonable conclusion to draw, that the
 7Russian prisoners of war, of whom 3 or 4 million died in
 8the prisoner of war camps in the Second World War, are
 9being exterminated by the Nazis. Why they are dying in
10the prison camps? Hitler knows perfectly well, because
11they are not being given food or sanitation. They are
12dying of typhus and starvation. He is aware of that.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I give you another example of your tendentious
14translations of another word? Page 409.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not accept they are tendentious.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Wait, Professor Evans.
17 MR IRVING:     Page 409, please, halfway down. Have you got this
18passage: "In his table talk, Hitler even hinted at the
19violent fate of the Jews when he referred to 'racial
20pests' being beaten to death".
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is the actual document there? Can we have a look at
23the actual passage that was used?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, pages 407 to 8, footnote 30. It is "Wenn mann von
25Staats wegen einen ausgesprochenen Volksschadling
26unschadliche mache, zum Beispiel totschlage".

.        P-79



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     So how did you manage "Volksschadling" as "racial pests"?
 2It is in the singular, is it not?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think it is quite clear that he is talking in the
 4singular, "der Jude". He says, "Wenn aber der Jude den
 5deutschen Menschen" -- you think he is talking about one
 6single Jew there? It is all collective.
 7 MR IRVING:     Does your Lordship have the passage?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it is translated in the singular at
 9page 407.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, it is. Page 407.
11 MR IRVING:     Halfway down page 409: "In his table talk, Hitler
12even hinted at the violent fate of the Jews when he
13referred to 'racial pests' or 'Volksschadlinge'". What
14entitles you, first of all, to translate the word
15"Volksschadlinge" as "racial pests"?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well "Schadlinge" is derived from agricultural biology.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     We know that. What about "Volks"?
18 MR IRVING:     Let the witness to.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Will you let the witness answer, Mr Irving?
20It is impossible for me to follow it. Every answer is
21interrupted.
22 MR IRVING:     I apologise.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Schadlinge" means what?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is a sort of agricultural biology term meaning a kind
25of pest, of crops, or something like that, a sort of small
26animal that devours crops, I think.

.        P-80



 1 MR IRVING:     It is the other half of the word I am looking at,
 2"Volks". Would you call a Volkswagen a race car, racial
 3car? A Volkskuche is a racial kitchen? A Volksseele is a
 4racial soul?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     A Volkswagon is a post 1945 term, even though the car was
 6not.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not let us worry about Volkswagons. Would
 8you like to put what you think the correct translation of
 9"Volksschadlinge" would be, Mr Irving? It is marrying up
10two concepts and I think it would be helpful.
11 MR IRVING:     Public pest.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Public pest?
13 MR IRVING:     It is a reference to a public pest. Is this not
14because Adolf Hitler was constantly issuing death
15sentences with summary procedures against rapists and
16train robbers and people like that, and you refer to them
17as the "Volksschadlinge"?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. It is not a public pest. Public is "offentlich" and
19that word does not appear here. That is a totally
20tendentious mistranslation of this term. Volksschadlinge
21is a term which the Nazis used in indeed dealing with
22criminals, because they considered that criminality was
23basically racial in character. That is to say, either
24through inherited racial characteristics of some sort,
25whether the criminal was German or not. I think it is
26quite clear what they mean. How would one translate the

.        P-81



 1word "Volkisch", which is the adjective? You
 2would translate it as "public", I suppose? I think that
 3is completely illegitimate.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     The word "Volkisch" is an extremely difficult word to
 5translate, as you are familiar, is that not right.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is the adjective of "Volk", and as used by the Nazis
 7I think it means in most cases "racial".
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is not the correct translation of "Eine Volksschadlinge
 9totzuschlagen" to bump off a public pest?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it is not.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     He says, "if we are entitled to bump off a public pest,
12then".
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. To start with, almost everything is wrong there, Mr
14Irving, totzuschlagen is to beat to death, no ambiguity
15about that at all. "Volksschadling" I translate as a
16"racial pest". That is my view of what it means in this
17context as used by Hitler, and one comes across this in a
18lot of the legislation courts decisions and memoranda of
19the Ministry of Justice which I am familiar with. That
20word "Volksschadling" is legally defined, indeed, in the
21Second World War. It means, to my mind ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     So this is another example ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In my translation it is a "racial pest". To put a gloss
24on it, it is a pest who is damaging the German race. That
25is really what it means.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is another example of a euphemism, right? You have to

.        P-82



 1translate it. It is a word which means one thing but you
 2say this is euphemism for the Jews?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I do not think that is what----
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. I do not mean that at all, no. Not necessarily at
 5all.
 6 MR IRVING:     How you would you translate the words "public pest"
 7into German?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Something like "offentlich ergonist", something like
 9that. Public nuisance is "offentlich Unfug". The use of
10the word "Schadling" comes from the racial ideology
11drawing a parallel between growing crops and farming and
12human beings.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     A sort of agricultural bacillus?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, my Lord.
15 MR IRVING:     You are aware that Adolf Hitler personally had to
16issue the death sentences against train robbers, rapists,
17and people like that. He would be the one who sent the
18word down the phone lines, saying "Execute"?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think he had to, Mr Irving. What he tended to do
20was -- I cite this in the book that I wrote -- he quite
21frequently, on at least 18 occasions listed by the
22Ministry of Justice during the early part of war, was
23reading the Nazi newspaper, and would see a report of some
24criminal whom he considered had too lenient a sentence for
25robbery or whatever, would exclaim, "That person ought to
26be shot", and immediately Schaub or somebody else would

.        P-83



 1leap up, get on the phone to Munich or wherever it was,
 2and have the criminal shot while trying to "escape".
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do not I say exactly the same in my book, Hitler's War,
 4now that you have mentioned that fact, that a simple phone
 5call to Schaub sufficed and the man was already sent to be
 6executed. Do you remember the passage in my book,
 7Hitler's War, where I said that in the Kaiser's time the
 8condemned man had the right to see the Kaiser's signature
 9on the death warrant, but in Hitler's time it was done
10more informally?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I remember that.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Not a very flattering passage about Hitler, is it?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In order to comment on that I would have to see the
14passage.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I thought you would say that. Will you now go to
16page 408?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry, I would have to.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     At the foot of page 408, the very last line of the
19footnote, you criticise me for failing to translate the
20last sentences. "In his translation of this passage,
21Irving fails to translate the last sentences".
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you look at the last sentences referred to, which is
24just above it in that footnote, it is not in the
25subjunctive, is it? So it is Goebbels, not Hitler.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not think that follows. You yourself said,

.        P-84



 1Mr Irving, that Goebbels wrote a rather colloquial slangy
 2sort of German so one would not expect him to stick
 3absolutely consistently to the formal means of reported
 4speech.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does the last sentence add at all or subtract at all to
 6the story? Is there some criticism? Is there some reason
 7why you criticise me for leaving out those sentences?
 8Obviously I have left out a huge number of sentences, I
 9have left out millions of sentences in writing my books.
10It is part of being a writer.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not a major point, Mr Irving.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. "Absolute Ausrottung" on page 413 is offset against
13going of their own accord, is it not? Either they go off
14their own accord or there is going to be "absolute
15Ausrottung"?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     So it is clearly a going and not a killing?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have cross-examined about that.
19 MR IRVING:     Yes. I just came across my rather nice way of
20putting it in my notes, my Lord.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It had struck me.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. What he is saying is that he will totally
23exterminate them if they do not go of their own accord,
24which of course by this time, January 1942, they were not
25going of their own accord because the Nazis had forbidden
26emigration of Jews from Germany in the previous October.

.        P-85



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the point Mr Irving is making is that
 2going and not going, as it were, are being contrasted.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which suggests Ausrottung is----
 5 MR IRVING:     Going voluntarily and not going voluntarily.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     How he thinks that Jews could have gone voluntarily at
 8this point, I really do not know.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did large numbers of Jews leave Germany more or less
10voluntarily between 1938 and the end of 1939?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, driven out by the enormous hostility of the Nazi
12regime, particularly in the Reichskristallnacht.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Were they carried to the port or the airport and dumped on
14a plane?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, they made the decision that life was unbearable in
16Germany and they left.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is 1942, that is the point.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is 1942.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us move on. I think we have had enough
20of that particular bit of table talk.
21 MR IRVING:     Page 416, in paragraph 22 and paragraph 1, I am
22sorry, the top paragraph of that page, what you are
23effectively saying is that the Nazis are using a code, are
24they not? They are using special words when in fact they
25mean something different.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

.        P-86



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does not the use of a code presuppose some kind of code
 2document or list that has to be both ends? People have to
 3know. It is not just a nod and a wink in something as
 4important as this. Would you not expect to try and some
 5kind of little list that, when I say evacuiert, I really
 6mean kill?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not think so.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there not a danger then that you send a train load of
 9Jews to Minsk, you evacuate them there and the person at
10the other end, Joe Bloggs, thinks they are just going to
11be evacuated, and he has them evacuated without realising
12he is supposed to kill them?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Or the reverse, as we know happened in Riga. One cannot
14expect it to be entirely consistent, but I think it is
15clear that people knew that there was a euphemistic
16language. It is not consistent. There is a variety of
17different terms used.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     But does not this whole scenario raise the obvious
19objection that any conspiracy theory has, that as soon as
20you are presupposing a major conspiracy with everybody
21knowing what is going on, everybody who is in the know,
22there must be some kind of documentation of the fact of
23the conspiracy, the code list or the list of names, and,
24apart from one or two scattered references like Heinrich
25Himmler' Posen speech, we do not actually have the
26equivalences, do we, spelled out?

.        P-87



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is such a convoluted question I am not how to answer
 2it.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it is the same question you were
 4asked before. Would you expect some sort of list or code,
 5and you have said no.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not expect some sort of list, no.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 417, line 4?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     The oath of secrecy which was taken by people involved in
10Operation Reinhardt, I think we agreed that there is such
11an oath because I have seen at least one. Do you remember
12what it consisted of, the three or four points what they
13swear to secrecy on?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Remind me. I quote it somewhere.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do they swear to preserve secrecy about what is going on
16in the evacuation?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry. I would have to see a copy of the oath, I am
18afraid.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     You asked me to remind you.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you ----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think I quote it somewhere, I am trying to try and it.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Let me put it like this. Was it not to protect the
24plundering character of Operation Reinhardt from
25unauthorized eyes?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In fact, I have it on page 609 of my report, the

.        P-88



 1fundamental order No. 1. Is this what we are referring
 2to?
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     No.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     25th September 41. It is certainly what I am referring to
 5there.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     No. The oath of secrecy that each person involved at
 7Auschwitz or somewhere like that had to sign on pain of
 8death?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I cannot comment on that without seeing it.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is very easily got hold of. It is
11document 112, is it not?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is not the fundamental order No. 1 in September 1941,
13but something different.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What are you referring to then? It is a
15document that camp officials at Auschwitz had to sign? Mr
16Irving, is that right?
17 MR IRVING:     Yes, there was but, in view of this, let me move
18straight on to talk about the document which he has
19produced.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right.
21 MR IRVING:     You refer to this Hitler secrecy order on page 417,
22line 2?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     As the famous Hitler secrecy order No. 1?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     You date it for some reason September 25th 1941.

.        P-89



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. Is that wrong?
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     What inference do you draw from that and have you drawn
 3from that?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is all right? The date is OK, is it?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is the date suggested to be wrong,
 6Mr Irving?
 7 MR IRVING:     That is question two, my Lord. I am asking
 8question one at this stage. What inference do you draw?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not draw any inference in the report from the date.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is document 112.
11 MR RAMPTON:     I am going to try to find the document.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I think it might be worth doing.
13 MR IRVING:     Do you not say at line 4 that this order for
14secrecy clearly covered the operational details of the
15Final Solution? Is that not the inference you draw from
16it?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It was in effect, unless you are telling me it was issued
18in 1945 or 44, then I think that follows.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     No. You are implying that this order, unless I have
20totally misunderstood you, in which case I apologise, was
21drawn up as part of the security measures to protect the
22ugly details of the Final Solution?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Ah no, I am not. I do not think that follows there at
24all. It certainly did cover all of that.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does not even the most incompetent historian know that the
26famous Adolf Hitler secrecy order was dated January 11th

.        P-90



 11940 and it was issued as a direct result of the famous
 2Mechelin incident when a German plane landed carrying
 3secret documents?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Provide me with documentation, Mr Irving.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Can we just to try and the document?
 6 MR IRVING:     Probably one of most famous orders Hitler ever
 7signed.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I am sure Mr Irving is right about everything but
 9I wish he would give me a moment to try and the document.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have you got document 112?
11 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. It is file H1 (ix) and it is page 238. We
12will provide your Lordship, and somebody will do it for
13the witness.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could I have a copy, please?
15 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Could I have a copy too?
17 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. I will pass this up.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     238?
19 MR RAMPTON:     238 is a stamped page number.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, on the bottom.
21 MR RAMPTON:     The right hand corner is said to be document 112.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have you got this, Mr Irving?
23 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I know all about Hitler's top secret order
24and I do not need to see this thing. This is a subsequent
25reissue of it.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is a reissue of the same document, is it,

.        P-91



 1Mr Irving?
 2 MR IRVING:     That I do not know, my Lord. The original January
 311th 1940 version says nobody under any circumstances who
 4has no need to know is to be informed of any secret
 5operation. It is a basic need to know document on which a
 6lot of other governments have modelled their own secrecy
 7laws since then.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is where I got it from.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you have never heard of the original basic order No. 1
10which was issued on January 11th 1940? I thought every
11historian knew of it.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you can point me to a copy of it, I am quite happy to
13accept your dating. It does not really affect what I say
14at all.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     The question is: You do not know of the January 1940 one?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I found it here. I quoted it as the date given here.
17I do not see what the point is you are trying to make,
18Mr Irving.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Nor do I.
20 MR IRVING:     The point I am trying to make is, firstly, once
21again there appear to be gaps in this expert witness's
22knowledge of the Third Reich.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sure there are gaps even in your knowledge of the
24Third Reich, Mr Irving.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Secondly, the inference which you invited the reader to
26draw from your expert report, that paragraph at the top of

.        P-92



 1417, that there was some sinister connection between the
 2issue of the order and the Final Solution evaporates?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not read it as saying that so I think we
 4can move on.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not draw that inference at all. That is just reading
 6far more into there than is actually there.
 7 MR IRVING:     Good. Line 5, you quote Henry Picker as saying,
 8"Over state secrets Hitler was totally uncommunicative.
 9He told us nothing in his table talk about the
10extermination of the Jews in the concentration camps".
11Does this not render nugatory every clever translation you
12have made of "Ausrottung" and "vernichtung" in the table
13talks up to this point and beyond?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. I do not recall any mention of the concentration
15camps.
16 MR IRVING:     No, the "Ausrottung" and the "vernichtung"?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, we are talking about the concentration camps here.
18I do not see any mention in the table talk of the
19concentration camps. That is what he is talking about
20here.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you believe Henry Picker is being clever when he is
22saying, "OK, he told us about all the other extermination
23of the Jews going on but not about what was going on in
24the concentration camps"?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is what he is saying. He says, "he told us nothing in
26his table talk about the extermination of the Jews in the

.        P-93



 1concentration camps." It may be clever or not, I think it
 2is probably true. What he goes on to say his (Hitler's)
 3conversations nevertheless revealed his deep rooted and
 4fanatical hatred for all other races. That I think is
 5also a true observation.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     What about Adolf Hitler's other private staff, his
 7stenographers, the people who took down every word he
 8spoke from September 1942 onwards, people like that, the
 9Adjutants, the private secretaries?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Oh goodness. You want to go all through all the whole
11section on the Adjutants now?
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not, but what I am going to draw your attention to is
13page 36 of the little bundle I gave you and invite you to
14look briefly at pages 39 and 40. Just run your eye over
15that letter from a lawyer to me dated 1974, when I was
16writing Hitler's War. He says that he carried out
17interrogations of all Hitler's Adjutants, stenographers
18and people like that in American captivity, and he has all
19their statements, and what should he do with them, if my
20memory of the letter is correct.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you go back now to page 36, in the meantime he has now
23given them to me and I am listing them. That is a little
24index of them.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 37 shows that I, like a total idiot, give them to the

.        P-94



 1archives in Germany, where I can no longer get them now.
 2Is that right?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     I can only draw your attention therefore to the summary in
 5this listing. If you look down the page numbers on the
 6right of that page 36, there is a statement by Ludvig
 7Krieger, who was one of Hitler's stenographers, his
 8extraordinary impression of Hitler, and Hitler never
 9mentioned the Holocaust of Jews. Right?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you see that one?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, without actually seeing the written statement, of
13course we do not know whether that summary of it and
14account of it is correct.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Ah. We will come to that.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What exactly he means by that is unclear.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you look at the item listed as page 23, Hitler never
18discuss concentration camps, the statement of another
19stenographer, Heinz Bucholz ----
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Page 23? Down the list?
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, down the list?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think it is true he did not discuss concentration
24camps. I do not think one sees the word "Auschwitz"
25anywhere in the Hitler table talks.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Your experts have had total access to my records,

.        P-95



 1including of course those particular interrogation
 2reports, have they not, in my papers in Munich?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did they look at those interrogations, do you think?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would have to check, but I do not see what the relevance
 6of that question is. I do not think we used them, put it
 7like that.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you accept that I used them in my books?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that, if I had statements by members of Hitler's
11private staff, not only questioned by me but questioned by
12others and by people far cleverer than myself, all of whom
13elicited precisely the same information that the Holocaust
14was never discussed by Hitler or at Hitler's headquarters,
15is that not a significance?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, there are a number of problems there. First of all,
17what some of these say is that Hitler never discussed the
18concentration camps, and that is true. What I say in my
19report is that he used a generalized language of racism,
20exterminatory racism, towards the Jews. You can read that
21in his table talks and in the Goebbels diaries, but he did
22not go into any details. That does seem to be the case on
23reading through the table talk. He did not talk in any
24detail about gas chambers in Auschwitz or the actual
25processes. The second thing to say is of course that ----
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     These are all Nazis?

.        P-96



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Will you let him finish?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. A lot of these people of course were concerned to
 3exculpate themselves, and therefore were being very
 4cautious in what they admitted about what Hitler did or
 5did not say to them. The third thing to say is of course
 6the fact that Hitler did not talk about these things does
 7not mean that he did not know about them, and a number of
 8his entourage who said that Hitler did not talk about the
 9extermination of Jews went on to say that they thought it
10was very clear that he did actually know about it.
11 MR IRVING:     Is there even one member of Hitler's staff who has
12stated from absolute certainty that Hitler had discussed
13this to your knowledge?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     All right. We shall have to go through the whole section
15on the Adjutants in that case which I thought we were not
16going to do. .
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I would be interested, though, if you could
18tell me and, if you cannot do it from memory, have a quick
19glance at your report, who are the members of the
20entourage who you say believed that Hitler did know about
21the extermination? You do not have to go into the detail
22of it, unless Mr Irving wants to ask you questions.
23 MR IRVING:     I will ask about specific people.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did Otto Gunscher make a statement?
26 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry, I do not think this is a satisfactory

.        P-97



 1way of dealing with it. Because I had said that I was not
 2any longer much interested in the Adjutants, I dare say
 3Professor Evans has not committed them all to memory over
 4the weekend. I do not know because I have not spoken to
 5him.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have been repeatedly assured that this was going to be
 7ditched so I have not.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I do think it right that, if he is going to answer
 9this perfectly proper question, he should be given time to
10read the adjutants section of the report, or skim it
11anyway, so that he can bring it back to mind.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. We have all got time pressure slightly
13in mind. I therefore was inviting him just for my
14reference, then I could read about it later, to identify
15the names of some of those.
16 MR IRVING:     It is purely the fact that Otto Gunscher, who
17I think is the last surviving Hitler adjutant, told my
18Dusseldorf lawyer five days ago that the first he heard of
19it was when he was in the Luganka in Moscow. Although he
20has made statements differing from that, he now accepts
21that the first he heard of it was when he was in Russian
22captivity, the first he heard specifically of the
23Holocaust and of Auschwitz. He was with Hitler from 1936
24until literally he was the man who burned Hitler's body.
25I have a letter from my Dusseldorf lawyer to that effect
26reporting this conversation.

.        P-98



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is up to you, Professor Evans. Would you
 2rather come back to this, maybe at 2 o'clock?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think I would, my Lord, yes.
 4 MR IRVING:     If we have time.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If we have time. It has caught me on the hop, I am
 6afraid.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is totally understandable. Do you mind
 8moving on, Mr Irving?
 9 MR IRVING:     Yes. Page 421, Professor Evans.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This, as you realize, has been superseded by my letter of
1110th January.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Paragraph 4?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     I was just going to comment that you are effectively going
15to leave the debate to Longerich.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have withdrawn that page.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are hoping that Professor Longerich is going to cure
18that little snag?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have withdrawn that page and the previous page, and the
20top half of the following page and replaced them with a
21new section, which is on pages 8 to 12 of my letter of the
2210th January.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 425, I am hoping this is going to take less than 15
24seconds, Magnus Brach (?) says that the Madagascar plan
25was a pure hypocrisy, a verbal smoke screen born out of
26thought games. I am looking at the phrase "thought games",

.        P-99



 1would you agree that this is the same as saying it is a
 2pipe dream?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He is not -- we are not talking about the Madagascar plan,
 4but about the Hitler table talk of the 24th July
 5mentioning the Madagascar plan, when, as we know, Hitler
 6had long since abandoned it. He says "pure hypocrisy",
 7I had better give the whole quote. "The talk on the 25th
 8July by Hitler about sending the Jews to Madagascar was
 9pure hypocrisy, at best a verbal smoke screen of Hitler's
10born out of thought games, a smoke screen with which he
11took up a known topic which had also once been the subject
12of concrete planning in order not to call the measures
13which are actually going on against the Jews by their
14name."
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 426, paragraph 1, which is the lower paragraph 1 on
16the page, an examination of?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     I may have a mistake here. I have a note here, you say
19that I omit the reference when in fact --
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, if you do not, we should look at it.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It must be a different page or something.
22 MR IRVING:     Must be looking at a different page. In fact, I
23have commented, it is, in fact, printed in full. Where am
24I accused of omitting a reference? But let us move on. In
25other words --
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Take your time, do not rush, Mr Irving.

.        P-100



 1 MR IRVING:     In that case we will have a look. 388. "It is a
 2life and death struggle between the Aryan race and the
 3Jewish bacillus" is the reference I am accused of
 4omitting.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure what are you looking for. The
 6allegation against you by Professor Evans is that you did
 7not --
 8 MR IRVING:     I left out --
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Presumably in the Goebbels book refer to the
10passage which Goebbels has talking about Hitler as being a
11persistent pioneer and spokesman of radical --
12 MR IRVING:     Here, too, the Fuhrer is the staunch champion and
13promoter of a radical solution, and I am accused of having
14omitted it and in fact it is on page 308 of the Goebbels
15biography?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Which page of my report is this?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 426.
18 MR IRVING:     Ah.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, at least that is where I assumed you
20were.
21 MR IRVING:     Yes. Yes, it is staring me in the face, three
22lines from the bottom of the main text.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     It has also been shown how Irving manipulated the diary
25entry in order to omit the Goebbels' reference to Hitler
26as the persistent pioneer and spokesman of a radical

.        P-101



 1solution to the Jewish question"?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you look at page 388 of Goebbels book it is there.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     388 or 308?
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     388, it is there.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     To be fair to the witness, this is a reference
 7back to -- I do not see a reference to the Goebbels book
 8here.
 9 MR IRVING:     Hitler's War.
10 MR RAMPTON:     I think it is a reference back to Hitler's War?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I was about to say that, my Lord. I do not deal with
12the Goebbels book in this section.
13 MR RAMPTON:     No, I think that is right.
14 MR IRVING:     But you agree that it is in the Goebbels biography
15because this, page 388, and it is relevant as concerns
16Goebbels, but not very relevant as concerns Hitler; is
17that a fair statement?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But you omit it from Hitler's War.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, do you accept it is not very relevant
22as far as Hitler is concerned?
23 MR IRVING:     Do you accept that the entry incriminates Goebbels,
24but does not incriminate Hitler?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not, no.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     In law, would it incriminate Hitler?

.        P-102



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not a lawyer, Mr Irving, I am an historian.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What do you mean by "in law", Mr Irving? Do
 3you mean as hearsay as regards Hitler?
 4 MR IRVING:     In a criminal case, would that be accepted?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think it matters whether it would or
 6it would not. We have to look at hearsay in an historical
 7context. We have spent most of the morning looking at
 8it.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Particularly in the so-called Schlagerberger memorandum.
10It is hearsay twice removed. You rely very, very heavily
11on that.
12 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, when were faced with an abundance
13of documentation and materials and you are obliged to
14write a book that does not contain eight pages of sludge
15every now and then would you agree that the first kind of
16thing that you would chop out would be the hearsay and you
17would leave the hard core stuff in like the police decodes
18and material like that?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But you do not do that, Mr Irving. There is masses of
20hearsay. As I said the so-called Schlagerberger memorandum
21is nothing but hearsay twice removed.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     I will ask the question again.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If it suits you, Mr Irving, you will put this hearsay in.
24If it suits you to discredit it because it is hearsay
25because it does not conform to your arguments you will
26leave it out. You have double standards in dealing with

.        P-103



 1this evidence.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, the question, I will ask it again is;
 3as a historian, Professor, do you agree that if you are
 4cutting down a published work for a new edition, the first
 5thing that goes is hearsay evidence?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I cannot agree with that as a general, global statement,
 7my Lord. It depends on what you are writing about, and,
 8of course, it depends on what the quality of other
 9evidence bearing on this particular problem is. There are
10occasions when we have to rely on hearsay evidence, though
11one would perhaps rather not.
12 MR IRVING:     Page 427, please, the last sentence. You say there
13is a number of documents and sources which strongly
14suggest that Hitler knew all along. So at the end of all
15this all can you do is say the document strongly suggests
16something; is that right?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. It seems to me a reasonable statement. I think
18history is about balances of probability, I think.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is a rather damning statement for the defence in this
20action though because what you do not say, and apparently
21you can not say, is that there is a number of documents
22which prove beyond reasonable doubt that Hitler knew, or
23even prove on the balance of probabilities. It is just
24saying you strongly suggest it, after all this huffing and
25puffing and after 55 years of searching through the
26archives and after millions of dollars which your defence

.        P-104



 1assistants have spent the most you can say is "strongly
 2suggest"?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is that meant to be question?
 4 MR IRVING:     It is. Well, there was a --
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You know what I am getting at, Mr Irving.
 6 MR IRVING:     Well, sometimes the answers are also long, my Lord.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     True.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Am I supposed to try and answer that?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I think you have answered it.
10 MR RAMPTON:     So do I.
11 MR IRVING:     In other words, there is nothing better than just
12strongly suggest that is how far we have reached?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think they do strongly suggest and the point is, of
14course, that these documents, which do strongly suggest to
15the objective historian that Hitler knew all along, are
16not directly confronted by you and taken into account by
17you, but they are manipulated, misrepresented or
18suppressed. That is the conclusion.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, we are on page 428. We are now on the Himmler
20minute of 22nd September 1942, on which I have
21cross-examined this witness in connection with the chain
22of evidence.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I thought we dealt with this.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, really, there is just one or two little dotting Is and
25crossing the Ts?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is that the "abschaffung" of the French

.        P-105



 1Jews?
 2 MR IRVING:     No, my Lord, it is the Juden austvanderung which
 3is one reason.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry, what date did you say? December
 51941?
 6 MR IRVING:     September 22nd 1942.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry.
 8 MR IRVING:     And it is Himmler's handwritten agenda for a
 9conversation with Hitler on which he firmly noted down
10before going into see Hitler the topic of Juden
11austvanderung, emigration of the Jews; how are we to
12proceed?
13     Then there is a new topic underneath that about
14the settlement of Lublin.
15 THE WITNESS:     Yes.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
17 MR IRVING:     It will be in my bundle in the chain of documents,
18my Lord.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. What are you going to ask? Are you
20going to ask more about that?
21 MR IRVING:     One or two minor things, because he has dealt with
22it in some detail. I am not going to ask about where they
23were going.
24     On page 430, these are ancillary documents to
25his argument on this, paragraph 4, line 2. I am afraid
26you have not provided the document for this, so we are

.        P-106



 1not...
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     We are not in a position to judge the quality of this
 4source. It is not in the bundle. I looked. You have
 5quoted it from Brightman and from Labotsnik's file. Now
 6we know from various sources, including Himmler's letter
 7to his mistress?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is generally publicly available, is it?
 9 MR RAMPTON:     That is not the first time Mr Irving has mentioned
10that correspondence. It is evident he has either got it,
11or he has seen it, or knows where to find it. We would be
12very much obliged if it were disclosed.
13 MR IRVING:     I am sure you would.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is not really an answer, Mr Irving. If
15you have it, it should have been disclosed. Do you have
16it?
17 MR IRVING:     My Lord, they are aware from the correspondence.
18It is not in my custody, power or possession. I read
19through the entire file in Chicago. It is in private
20hands and I have made a three page note which I
21have supplied to the Defendants now.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And you have not taken copies of it? Or of
23any of it?
24 MR IRVING:     The gentleman concerned wanted a quarter million
25dollars for them.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have you taken any copies of any of it?

.        P-107



 1 MR IRVING:     There is one page of which I have a facsimile which
 2I provided. But I provided to the Defendants the note
 3I took at the time on that, which is pretty full and
 4extensive. The reference, from memory, it is Himmler
 5writes to this female in July 1942. He is just about to
 6set out on a swing round Lublin and Auschwitz and other
 7places. He mentions Auschwitz by name and says there are
 8ugly things that he has to do for Germany's sake. But
 9that is the sense of it. I have not got the exact
10quotation. But anyway we do know that he had set out.
11     He the question is, witness, at this time, this
12letter is just after Himmler had visited Lublin,
13Auschwitz --
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, just pause a moment, if you can
15bear in mind that we have all got to get, or at least
16I have to get my bearings, Mr Rampton, it seems to me that
17cannot be taken any further.
18 MR RAMPTON:     What cannot?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have had a synopsis.
20 MR RAMPTON:     No, I sat down. I have not seen it. I do not know
21when we had it but that is --
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, chase it up if you want to raise it
23again.
24 MR RAMPTON:     That is my problem. That is not Mr Irving's
25problem.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, so are we back to the Himmler minute of

.        P-108



 122nd September?
 2 MR IRVING:     July 22nd 1942, it is very interesting period, is
 3it not, witness?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     September?
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, or July --
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Page 430, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- 430, yes. Labotsnik has written a message in which
 8apparently he says the Reichsfuhrer SS has given us so
 9much new work that with it now all our most secret wishes
10are to be fulfilled; I am unhappy about this omission
11after the word "Reichsfuhrer SS" because we have
12established you have a bit of a track record of leaving
13things out, have you not, Professor?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, leave aside that is gratuitous as well,
16where is the document?
17 MR IRVING:     We do not have the document, my Lord, I have not
18been shown it.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I know you do not, I am asking the
20witness, where is the document that you are quoting from.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is in the Berlin document centre. It is cited in a
22book by Richard Brightman called The Architecture of
23Genocide. It is not -- I mean, it does not play a very
24important part in the report, I have to say I am not quite
25concern why Mr Irving is asking about it.
26 MR IRVING:     It is in the report, I am entitled to ask you, what

.        P-109



 1do you think --
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Of course you are entitled to ask, I am not --
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- what do you think our most secret wishes are at that
 4time? Do you have any indication from the document that
 5the secret wishes concern the homicidal disposal of the
 6Jews en masse?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     -- I think that is one possible interpretation of that --
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     One possible interpretation --
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     -- given the fact that that is what Labotsnik was doing.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- is it not evident from the September 22nd document, the
11handwritten agenda, that the discussion between Hitler and
12Himmler in which Labotsnik was mentioned was in fact the
13resettlement of the Lublin area with the ethnic Germans
14and this might equally well have been the most secret
15wish?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, the two were, of course, combined, and in fact on
1718th July 1942 Himmler had ordered that the Jews must
18finally disappear from Lublin, which is on page 495 of the
19Himmler calendar. So very shortly before this the
20disappearance of the Jews from Lublin to make way for
21these ethnic Germans moved in there, of course was to be
22undertaken by Labotsnik and involved sending them off to
23Treblinka where the killing started on the 23rd July. So
24I think it is reasonable to assume that he is talking here
25about the whole package. These two things are very
26intimately connected.

.        P-110



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is one possible inference, right?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think it is a reasonable inference.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     But the document obviously does not tell us anything else
 4more specific, otherwise it would have been quoted, would
 5it not?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is what I think he is talking about. He is
 7talking about the killing, mass killing of Jews to make
 8way for the people resettling the Lublin area from
 9Bessarabia, Lorraine and Bosnia, ethnic Germans.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Would Labotsnik have had a particular wish to
11see Lublin being cleared of the Jews as quickly as
12possible?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think, yes, I think that is certainly the case, yes.
14 MR IRVING:     Would it have been a security wish? Was he chief of
15police in that region?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     The remaining messages in that paragraph, you do accept
18that I have adequately used them or referred to them in my
19biographies of Hitler and Goebbels?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Goodness, you do cite them, yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Despite their very ugly language --
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You certainly cite them --
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- the reference to the 5,000 members of the chosen people
24and so on?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     -- yes, you cite them.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 433 of your report, please, in the last indented

.        P-101



 1passage on this page, it is admitted that the plaintiff
 2did not draw attention to this minute, in fact, I did, did
 3I not?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     I quoted from it?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think you were doing yourself an injustice.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. So I quoted the lines of Himmler's September 1942
 8agenda in full in Hitler's War on page 392, I just merely
 9left out the reference to Globos, did I not?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is right, on paragraph 3, page 434, I note in
11going through the pleadings in the case both the defence
12and Irving are, in fact, wrong in claiming that Irving has
13not used the note by Himmler in his work.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 435, paragraph 4, I am again going to have ask you
15something from your memory, if you do not know the answer
16then just say so.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, OK.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you give one example where austvanderung as opposed to
19"evakuieren" or "umsiedein" is used explicitly by Hitler
20or anybody else as a euphemism for killing? If you do not
21know the answer then just say so.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, let me draw attention to the passage we looked at a
23little bit earlier, where he talks about that and says
24that 75 per cent of those who emigrated from Germany in
25the 19th century died.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, well, they were killed or they died of natural

.        P-112



 1causes?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well I think it is clear he means that they were
 3transported in conditions so brutal and murderous that it
 4came to the same thing.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     That they died because of privations?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Deliberately inflicted on them, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not really want to follow that up, I do not it really
 8advances it.
 9Page 441.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If we are moving to a new topic it would help
11me, Mr Irving, if you put it in context rather than just
12going to some rather small point on the text.
13 MR IRVING:     Your Lordship has rightly noticed that we have now
14moved to the Horthy meetings, Hitler and Horthy of April
151943.
16     (To the Witness) Your contention is, is it not,
17that I deliberated transposed the two sentences referred
18to on page 441?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, I did not catch... which page,
21441?
22 MR IRVING:     Page 441 of the report.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The point here is that Hitler and Ribbentrop met the
24Hungarian leader, Admiral Horthy, on 16th and 17th April
251943, and the minutes of the meeting make it clear that
26Hitler and Ribbentrop failed to get their message across

.        P-113



 1that the Hungarian Jews should be delivered to the Germans
 2for killing, on the 16th. And, in fact, seemed to have
 3failed to make clear that killing was what was actually
 4involved. So on second day, the 17th April, they put much
 5more pressure on Horthy, and were much more explicit, and
 6on the 17th April, for example, Ribbentrop said the Jews
 7had be annihilated or put in concentration camps, and
 8Hitler said the Jews i Poland were shot if they were
 9unable to work and he uses the usual language of
10tuberculous, bacilli and killing them and shooting hares
11and deer he talks about. On the previous day, on the
1216th, Hitler, when Horthy had "surely you do not mean kill
13them", Hitler had said "there is no need for that". But
14on the 17th he does not, he is much more explicit "they
15must be killed", and what is done in the account of this
16in Hitler's War is that phrase, "there is no need for
17that", is placed after an account of what Hitler on the
1817th, removing also Ribbentrop's remark about the
19concentration camps or killing into the footnote. So, in
20other words, it makes it look as if Hitler is opposing the
21killing of Jews, whereas, in fact, he was advocating it.
22That is the nub of the case.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is very clear. Thank you very much.
24 MR IRVING:     A very useful summary. But now let us cut down to
25the bottom line. Firstly, does it change the burden of
26Hitler's remark one bit whether it is uttered on the 16th

.        P-114



 1or 17th April 1943?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, it does, yes, I have already explained that Hitler
 3and Ribbentrop were much more explicit on the 17th because
 4they had failed to get their message across to Horthy who
 5was either too dim or too old or too devious to get the
 6message on the 16th, so they were more explicit on the
 717th.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     So on April 16th when Horthy apologised that he had done
 9all he decently could against the Jews and continued "but
10they can hardly have been murdered or otherwise
11eliminated" Hitler reassured him, and there is dispute
12between us on that, "there is no need for that"?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, there is no need for them to be murdered
15or otherwise eliminated?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is he not being perfectly explicit there on April 16th as
18to what Adolf Hitler's position is?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. He is drawing back from the actual brutality of
20saying "yes, that is what I do mean". He is trying to
21throw up a bit of smoke screen there. In saying "give us
22your Jews", as it were, and Horthy says, "well, we do not
23really want to do that if they are going to be killed" and
24Hitler "says all right, that is okay, just give them to
25us".
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you find any support for this homicidal intent by

.        P-115



 1Adolf Hitler in the Hungarian version of this meeting?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Ah, right. This is on pages 443 to 446 of my report,
 3these are much less explicit, though they do not say what
 4you claim that they say.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     What we are looking for is some reference in the Hungarian
 6record to killing Jews. "Adolf asked us to kill our Jews
 7and we put up a strong fight against it", is there
 8anything in that sense?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, the Hungarians were very careful about being
10explicit about this.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why should they have had to be?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Horthy, Horthy put in -- drafting a letter with the
13phrase -- and we are back to "ausrotten" here again, "Your
14Excellency", writing back, it was a follow up to the Nazi
15leaders, "further approached me that my government did not
16proceed in the extermination or extirpation of Jewry with
17the same radicalism with which this had been carried out
18in Germany". That is also regarded -- desired for other
19countries too, but in fact he crossed that out. He
20thought that was really too blunt and too brutal.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does this indicate that Hitler and Ribbentrop told Horthy
22about the radicalism that they were carrying out the
23operation in German?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That seems to have been the case, yes, on the 17th April.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there any hint of that in Schmidt's report of their
26meeting that they had this lengthy disquisition to the

.        P-116



 1Hungarians on how they were killing all the Jews?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, now on the 17th, when Horthy says again "what should
 3he do with the Jews" after he had pretty well taken all
 4means of living from them, because Horthy was anti-semitic
 5too, although in a somewhat less extreme sense than
 6Hitler. "He surely could not beat them to death", the
 7Reichs Foreign Minister replied that "the Jews must either
 8be annihilated or taken to concentration camps, there was
 9no other way". The alternative given there, that is
10footnote 8, page 441, and the alternative given there
11makes it quite clear what "vernichten" means, it means
12"killed".
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     So the word that is used there is "vernichten" again
14annihilated?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. He cannot be talking about anything else. He gives
16the alternative, it is a sort of alternative of "work" or
17"death" again.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have read the entire Nuremberg transcript of the
19examination and cross-examination of Ribbentrop and
20Schmidt on the Horthy meeting?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was there any admission at any point by either of those
23people, either by Ribbentrop or the interpreter, that
24there had been talk of annihilating in the murderous
25sense, the homicidal sense?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This statement by Ribbentrop was regarded by the

.        P-117



 1prosecution as an extremely damning piece of evidence,
 2that Ribbentrop had been responsible for mass murder and
 3therefore Ribbentrop, of course, in his own interests
 4disputed this.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Standing back from the documents, this is the
 6Germans really soliciting Horthy to agree to the Hungarian
 7Jews being transported to the General Government?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Looking at it, as it were, from Horthy's point of view,
10what would he have thought that the Nazis' interest in
11doing that was?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He is trying to find out, my Lord, and this is why he is
13asking repeatedly, "surely, you do not want to beat them
14to death? You do not want kill them?" I have done
15everything that I can, he says.
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     What other motive would the Nazis have in relation to
17Hungarian Jews?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     None that I can imagine, my Lord. They certainly do not
19say that they want to take them away for labour.
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Labour would be the alternative?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Would be the only other possible motivation that they
22could have. But it is quite clear here they have got to
23be annihilated or taken to concentration camps. And the
24whole language which is used, "bacilli" and giving a
25humane death to wild animals and so on makes it quite
26clear what they are talking about.

.        P-118



 1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, but I was thinking, leaving aside the documents, what
 2the sort of thinking must have been on the two sides, the
 3Nazi and the Hungarian side?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     From Horthy's point of view, of course, he did, in fact,
 5deport non-Hungarian Jews who were then killed. But he
 6objected on grounds of sovereignty to Hungarian Jews, his
 7Jews, as it were, even though he put all sorts of legal
 8discriminations on them to being taken away by a foreign
 9power.
10 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Sorry, Mr Irving.
11 MR IRVING:     Right, now I have to ask you two very clear
12questions following up on his Lordship's very
13well-informed questions; it is true that the Nazis not
14only wanted Hungarians as slave labour, but they also
15perceived (this is not evident from the Schmidt
16transcripts) the very large Jewish population of Budapest
17and the environments of Hungary as being a serious
18security problem within the boundaries of Hitler's empire,
19if you can put it like, that they regarded the Jewish
20population in Hungary as being a serious security threat
21or problem; is that right?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let us have a look. Where can we see this? Where does he
23say this? I am not disputing it, I just want to know what
24passage you are referring to in the Schmidt's minutes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am going to come back after lunch to that if I may, my
26Lord, because I spent a great deal of yesterday evening

.        P-119



 1reading through the entire memoranda and also the
 2interrogations that Schmidt conducted by the US State
 3Department which I still have in my files here. There is
 4no reference to this kind of homicidal conversation going
 5on in the interrogations.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, well, speaking for myself, I do not find
 7that all that surprising, but it would be interesting if
 8Schmidt does record some other reason for wanting to get
 9rid of the Hungarian Jews.
10 MR IRVING:     That I will try and elicit today, my Lord, but
11there is one final question I would like to ask before we
12adjourn and this is following.
13     (To the Witness) Is there any reason why in
14their own internal foreign ministry memoranda in Budapest
15the Hungarians would have had to use euphemisms to conceal
16what they perceived the Germans were going to do with the
17Hungarian Jews? Is not likely that they would have been
18brutally frank to their own officials in saying "what is
19this madman Hitler up to now? He is going to take our
20Jews away from us and liquidate them. We have to stop it
21however we can". Is that not the kind of memorandum you
22would expect to find and have you found such memorandum?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, the memoranda you are referring to I think is a
24report by the Hungarian representative in Berlin to the
25Prime Minister in Budapest, which you say summarized the
26talks between Hitler, Horthy, and Ribbentrop and said that

.        P-120



 1the Jews are not to be liquidated only interned, and in
 2fact the document deals with a separate conversation
 3between the minister and Ribbentrop, and all it says is
 4that "Hitler personally drew the attention of His Highness
 5the Regent [which is Horthy] to the necessity of settling
 6in a more thorough and penetrating manner the Jewish
 7question in Hungary". That is all it says. It is about
 8many other things as well. As for euphemisms, that is
 9just a diplomatic phrase.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     No, but why should they have pussy footed around in their
11own internal Hungarian memoranda? I can understand why
12the Germans adopted euphemisms for their murderous
13programme, but why should the Hungarians have had to adopt
14euphemisms?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, this is an extremely sensitive issue, as we know.
16The Hungarian government actually refused to deliver the
17Hungarian Jews and for that and because the Hungarian
18forces were partly withdrawn from the war effort as
19Germany's ally, Hungary was actually invaded and Horthy
20was pushed aside. This is a very, very sensitive issue
21within the Hungarian ministries.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I was under the impression they had
23voluntarily in the end handed over the Hungarian Budapest
24Jews.
25 MR IRVING:     It was not voluntary. They sent Adolf Eichmann to
26do it.

.        P-121



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It was not, no. The Germans invaded and sent Eichmann in
 2who organized it himself.
 3 MR IRVING:     They question is, my Lord, and I am sure your
 4Lordship appreciates it.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I understand why you put the question.
 6It was my ignorance, I did not realise what had been...
 7 MR IRVING:     (To the Witness) The question is, quite simply,
 8you have not found anywhere in the Hungarian files, or in
 9my copies from the Hungarian files, any explicit
10references that make plain that the Hungarians were aware
11that killing was what lay ahead?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, they must have been -- the Hungarian file?
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, no, and I think obviously Storgzy (?) who was the
15minister concerned, is much more favourable to the Germans
16than Horthy was, and was, in fact, put into power by the
17Germans when they invaded. So he may well have felt it
18necessary internally, in the internal power games he was
19playing to cloak what was being asked in a certain amount
20of euphemism, but that is only speculation on my part. I
21do not want know enough about the ins and outs of
22bureaucratic Hungarian politics at this time.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Thank you, my Lord, I think we have made good progress.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But it is a fair point, is it not, that if
25this was something that they were being dragged kicking
26and screaming into doing against their will, you would

.        P-122



 1think from their own point of view that they would have
 2recorded in their own internal documents something to the
 3effect that, you know, this is all ghastly. We know what
 4is going to happen to these Jews and we are doing
 5everything we can to prevent it happening.
 6 THE WITNESS:     Well, I think, my Lord, one has to make a
 7distinction between this particular politician, Storgzy,
 8who was no doubt looking for the main chance, which he
 9eventually got when the Nazis invaded and was put into
10power and Horthy who was the one who really objected.
11I think Storgzy was much less hostile towards the idea and
12therefore may well have felt the need for euphemism.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Perhaps one should draw attention, save me coming
14back to it, to paragraph 3, the last part, on page 444,
15and the last sentence of page 445 i Professor Evans'
16report.
17 THE WITNESS:     Yes, this is Horthy deleting the reference to
18"extirpation" from his letter to the Germans. It is not
19an internal memorandum.
20 MR IRVING:     Reference to "ausrotten", right. Was Horthy
21surrounded by a large staff of people with him? Did he
22have interpreters with him and flunkeys who also attended
23the conference?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have to say I do not know how many people came with him.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, shall we say five past 2? How are you
26doing, Mr Irving, are you more or less on course?

.        P-123



 1 MR IRVING:     We have made excellent progress.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, do not rush your fences, particularly
 3on the big points.
 4 MR IRVING:     If your Lordship thinks I am rushing then please
 5slow me down.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I have tried to slow you down on the
 7odd occasion. But five past 2.
 8 (Luncheon Adjournment)
 9(2.05 p.m.)
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Evans, you were going to help us
11about the Adjutants, I think, were you not? If you had
12the chance to see whether there were any who, on
13reflection, did say that they thought Hitler knew about
14the extermination? I think that was the point, was it
15not?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I have looked very hastily at my report. I refer you
17to pages -- oh, yes, well, first of all, page 622 of my
18report and pages 15 to 16 of my letter of 10th January
19this year which makes it clear that the conversation which
20Engel reported was on 2nd November, and Himmler was
21reporting to Hitler about what was going on with the Jews
22in Riga and Minsk at the very time when shootings were
23taking place. It seems highly likely that they were
24discussed. Pages 629 to 30.
25 MR IRVING:     Can I take them one at a time, my Lord?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I think that probably is better in the

.        P-124



 1end, Professor Evans, if you would not mind?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have 10 references my Lord. It may take some time.
 3 MR IRVING:     We will deal with them very rapidly. Is this the
 4only reference to Engel on which you are going to rely?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, this is all we had time to look at really.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Major Engel or Lieutenant General Engel, as he became, was
 7Hitler's Army Adjutant, is that correct? He was the Army
 8Adjutant on Hitler's staff?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right, with Hitler, yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     You never met him, did you?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I did not meet him, no.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you ever see the original diary or pages of diary on
13which this is based?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, well -- oh, I see what you mean. I explain the
15background to the diaries on page 617 to 18 of my report
16and again on pages 15 to 16 of my letter.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not going to discuss contents ----
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is a shorthand diary you are saying or?
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not going to discuss the content of the diary. Am
20I right in saying that there is a dispute over the time
21when the diaries were written?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think there is some confusion which was partly his own
23fault, but I think it is fairly clear what happened, and
24that is laid out in my report and in the letter.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am going to ask you questions. Is it right that the
26diaries were purchased by the Institute of History in

.        P-125



 1Munich in the 1960s from the General for a sum of 50,000
 2deutschemarks?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I will accept if you say that, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it right that the Institute then learned to their
 5consternation that the diaries were written on postwar
 6paper?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is clear that the diaries were, in short -- that what
 8Engel did -- I am trying to find the place here -- is that
 9he seems to have sort of made up another version of the
10diaries or used a copy of the diaries after the war to
11answer questions which are put to him, and that he added
12in some extra, some additional notes, and then somehow the
13originals got lost, so that what exists is a sort of
14hybrid which consists partly of original material and
15partly of copied out and partly of the later editions, and
16the problem is trying to disentangle these things.
17     What one can say is that there is some original
18material there and then some material written down from
19memory. So they have to be treated with a considerable
20amount of caution, particularly where dates are concerned,
21as I make clear in the editions to my report where he
22reports a conversation on 2nd October 1941 which can, in
23fact, be dated to 2nd November 1941.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would a genuine diary do that?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have already explained the status of the diary which was
26copied by Engel with some additions, so it is not a

.        P-126



 1question of being genuine or fake. It is a question of a
 2kind of hybrid document.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would why he copy dates wrongly in his own diary?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, we all make mistakes.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     A slip of the pen, I suppose.
 6 MR IRVING:     I beg your pardon?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     A slip of the pen, could be?
 8 MR IRVING:     Are there many such slips of the pen?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There seem be a number, yes, and it is also, of course, in
10shorthand, shorthand notes. And Engel, in fact, went to
11the Institute of Contemporary History in Munich twice to
12read out his shorthand notes for copying, and so there are
13a lot of opportunities for error there in all these
14various processes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not likely that, in fact, he tried to reconstruct
16years later what had happened and when and that in that
17process he got the dates wrong?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not entirely, no. I mean, it is very difficult to second
19guess exactly what went on.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the passage in the Engel diary dated
21November 24th 1942 where he describes a heated conference
22between Hitler and Goring over the Battle of Stalingrad at
23a time when Goring was, in fact, nowhere near Hitler's
24headquarters but was on a shopping expedition i Paris?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There are many instances like that, but if one looks at it
26patiently, I think one can disentangle them and to track

.        P-127



 1down the right date as we have done in once instance that
 2we had time to do.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen several items of correspondence from me to
 4the Institute in which I have drawn their attention to
 5genuine entries in genuine diaries, like Walter Hayhol or
 6the widow of Schmunt, which makes the entries in the Engel
 7diary completely impossible?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, and if you check them against the Himmler
 9Diensttagebuch, you can also find some misdating there as
10well.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     How can ----
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That does not mean, however, that the whole diary has to
13be dismissed. Responsible historians do not dismiss whole
14sources just because of complex problems of this sort.
15You have to find out how the sources came into being and
16then try to track down what went on there. The point,
17since we seem to have got on to the Adjutants on a kind of
18larger scale, the point that I make in my report is, of
19course, that because you find Engel's diary/memoirs,
20I think one should call it, in many ways embarrassing, you
21dismiss it altogether just simply as a forgery which is
22completely irresponsible.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     How can one have the slightest confidence in a diary ----
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Whereas the very similar diaries/memoir of Friedrich van
25Owan you treat quite uncritically because he says he was a
26neo-Nazi after all and says what you like.

.        P-128



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     You say that I treat it uncritically. Have you seen the
 2reference in the Goebbels biography to the faults that are
 3contained in the Owan diary and the evidence has quite
 4obviously been constructed postwar? There is this very
 5lengthy footnote in my Goebbels biography.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you point it me to?
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     I will point it out later on because I do not want to be
 8distracted from this.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right, we have dealt with Engel, have we not?
10What about your second reference?
11 MR IRVING:     I want to ask one summary question. How can one
12have the slightest confidence in a diary of a man who has
13repeated mistaken dates, invented fictitious events ----
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have asked that question, Mr Irving. You
15have asked that question.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And the answer is through the use of painstaking objective
17scholarship of a kind which you seem unfamiliar with,
18Mr Irving.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware that I am the person who has exposed the
20Engel diary as being suspect?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is suspect now, is it? Not completely falsified?
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that until I did so, the Institute of History had not
23the slightest idea that these pages had been faked?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not at all -- it has no relevance at all to what
25I am saying.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is the next name?

.        P-129



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What we are dealing with here is the point that while the
 2Adjutants said that the subject of extermination of the
 3Jews was not mentioned in so many words in Hitler's
 4headquarters, it is not legitimate to draw from that the
 5conclusion that they thought that Hitler did not know
 6about it which is the conclusion that you draw. On page
 7632, for example, we have Karl-Jesco vo Puttkamer who
 8says, "I can state with certainty that Dr Dietrich knew
 9nothing of such things", and we are talking here about the
10press spokesman Otto Dietrich. "Because of Dietrich's
11sensitive nature, Hitler would have completely oppressed
12him with the knowledge of it", talking about the
13extermination of the Jews, "and Hitler, who knew precisely
14this quality in Dr Dietrich, took care, alone on these
15grounds, not to initiate him." Thus, what Puttkamer says
16is that Hitler knew but did not tell Dietrich.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So that is the second one?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is the second one. That is, of course, a sentence
19omitted by Mr Irving. He writes about this. Thirdly,
20633, Wilhelm von Bruckner: "Hitler never talked in my
21presence about the so-called Final Solution of the 'Jewish
22question' or 'extermination of the Jews'. This applied
23equally to the whole of Hitler's entourage". Then
24Bruchner added: "These questions were probably left to
25the close and competent circle, to which Dietrich", again
26talking about him, "did not belong". That is another one

.        P-130



 1who says that they -- in other words, it was discussed,
 2not just by Hitler, Hitler did know about it in other
 3words.
 4 MR IRVING:     Can I draw your attention to page 634, please,
 5paragraph 2? You state that I did not provide the
 6statements by the stenographers Buchholz, Jonuschat,
 7Krieger, Reynitz and Thot. Is that not precisely the file
 8of which I have just drawn your attention in the bundle
 9this morning, at page 36, the written statement of
10Hitler's stenographers, that that was, therefore, in the
11Institute and available to you and your researchers?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I am just saying that you did not provide it to the
13court before this morning. That is all.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did not do what?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Provide it to the court before this morning.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware that that list is in my discovery as a
17numbered item in my discovery?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Are the actual statements there?
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     The actual statements are in the Institute of History
20where they have been ----
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     So they are not in the discovery? That is all I am
22saying.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, I think his Lordship has the point. Next name?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     636, this is Krieger, one of the stenographers.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Krieger, yes, I see.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

.        P-131



 1 MR IRVING:     Ludovic Krieger.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Who as a sort of a "don't know": "It remains a problem"
 3-- it is rather awkward English -- "It remains a problem
 4first unsolved whether Hitler himself issued the orders of
 5such cruelties or authorised men as Himmler or Bormann to
 6do so or whether generally held orders were carried out by
 7subordinate organs and sadists in such a brutal and vile
 8manner" which is somehow rewritten on a different version
 9which is used by Mr Irving where he says: "For the
10present it must remain an unanswered question, whether
11Hitler himself issued specific orders ... or whether
12orders issued in generalised terms were executed by
13subordinates and sadists".
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Whose translation is the first one?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is, I think, it looks like it is originally -- it is
16such peculiar English, it looks like it was originally
17written in English actually. Anyway, he keeps it open.
18He says it is certainly possible that Hitler issued the
19orders.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is page 636?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. And then Buchholz, page 636, again it was never
22discussed.
23 MR IRVING:     "It is possible that Hitler issued the order", what
24does he mean by that?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He is just saying that; it is possible that he issued the
26orders of such cruelties.

.        P-132



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is possible the Queen Mother issued the orders, but we
 2are dealing with likelihoods here, are we not?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, but you are saying that, you are drawing a conclusion
 4from all these people's testimony that they all thought it
 5was not possible.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     No, the conclusion that I have drawn is that all of them
 7were questioned and all of them came out -- in every case
 8the interrogators drew a blank, if I can put it like
 9that?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, well, there are two issues here which you have already
11mentioned. One is whether or not the extermination of the
12Jews was actually discussed in Hitler's entourage to which
13these people all said, leaving aside whether you believe
14it or not, no; and the second question, whether they
15concluded from that that Hitler did not know about them,
16which is the conclusion that you draw from their
17evidence. I am saying here, in this series of examples,
18that they did not, in fact, draw that conclusion.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware of the fact that in most of these cases I
20personally interviewed all these men myself?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     That I am capable to judge whether they are telling the
23truth or not and the nature of the evidence they are
24giving?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     You do not accept that?

.        P-133



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, no, I think you wait for the answer you want and you
 2do not probe any deeper.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     So I am not capable of detecting forgeries or lies or
 4anything like that?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not when people are saying what you want them to say, no.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we have another name?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Buchholz: "The Fuhrer did not discover" -- well, "The
 8treatment of political prisoners in concentration camps
 9was never discussed in the briefings with Hitler at which
10I was present".
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page, please?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     636. "The reason why lies in the fact", he says, "the
13reason lies" and then: "The circle of those in the know
14had been kept very small. I am convinced that such
15questions have always been treated between the Fuhrer and
16the Reichsfuhrer SS", that is Himmler, "Himmler in strict
17confidence. Especially in last half year, such
18conversations between these two often took place, usually
19before or after a briefing at which Himmler appeared".
20And then ----
21 MR IRVING:     Can I stop you?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a specific claim that Hitler did
23know, is it not?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
25 MR IRVING:     Yes, but it is based on the fact that Himmler and
26Hitler met in private and that this, therefore, invites

.        P-134



 1the following immediate question, do we not have the notes
 2which Himmler drew up for the meetings of the ----
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, not obviously -- one does not know whether they are
 4complete or not.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor Evans, have we not been not been looking at some
 6of the handwritten notes ----
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Mr Irving, the ----
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- the handwritten notes of the ----
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     These members of this staff are giving their opinion.
10What we are talking about here is their opinion. You have
11said that because they say that there was no discussion in
12Hitler's entourage, therefore, Hitler did not know about
13it. I am quoting the opinions of various of these people
14that Hitler did know. That is what is at issue. That is
15a separate matter from whether Hitler really did know or
16not. It is a question of ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Shall we look at exactly what Buchholz says?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     -- a question of the evidence. Yes, indeed.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     He says: "I am convinced that such questions have always
20been treated between the Reichsfuhrer and Hitler and
21Himmler in strict confidence". Of course, Buchholz is,
22effectively, saying, "I do not know what happened between
23them", is he not?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, no. He is actually saying he knows what ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He is guessing, I suppose that is fair, is it
26not?

.        P-135



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- he suspects. Yes, but he is giving his opinion.
 2 MR IRVING:     He is guessing. But we do not have to guess, my
 3Lord, because we have the agenda.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He is giving his opinion, "I am convinced".
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Do you have another name? I mean, unless his
 6Lordship has further questions to ask ----
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I have plenty more.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, well, we want to move through the names with speed
 9because we are not ----
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am moving them as fast as I can.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am happy just to have the names, but if you
12want to ask questions, Mr Irving, that is entirely
13appropriate and please do so.
14 MR IRVING:     I am asking, for example, on Engel where there is
15an important point, I slowed the matter down, but on the
16other names I an not really going to halt the flow.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it is up to you decide. I mean, if you
18say, "Oh, well, do not be ridiculous, he is not even
19hinting that Hitler knew", then I think you ought to put a
20question to that effect.
21 MR IRVING:     I have heard nothing that shakes me yet, my Lord,
22because frankly I am very familiar with all these papers.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, well, I am not nearly as familiar as you
24so it helps me to know which Adjutant Professor Evans is
25going to point to.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right, the next one.

.        P-136



 1 MR IRVING:     Then I will ask a few general questions at the end.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     All right.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Then a statement by Heinz Linge.
 4 MR IRVING:     On which page?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     639 to 40.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     640?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, and again 642 to 3. Then 645, let us have a look at
 8this. Brottigan, 645 to 6.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we know exactly what is in your statement ----
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is all in my report.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just go to the bit because I was looking for
12the particular passage you rely on.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right. Well, there are two passages, 639 to 40 and 642 to
143, by Hitler's attitude towards the Jews. All right.
15 MR IRVING:     It does not amount to a row of beans really, does
16it?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Brottigan/Schumndt, pages 645 to 6.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you read the diaries of Brottigan which I found in
19the Library of Congress? Are you aware that I found the
20diary of Otto Brottigan in the Library of Congress, the
21handwritten diary?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And Christa Schroeder ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you answer my question, please?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, yes. I am aware you found it, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there anything in the handwritten diary of Otto
26Brottigan which indicates a knowledge of Hitler of the

.        P-137



 1Final Solution in the homicidal sense?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right, page 645.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is Wolga German's episode, is it not?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is to say, in the report that Rosenberg urged a kind
 7of retaliation for the Stalin deportation of all the
 8Germans to Siberia.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not read that as suggesting that
10Brottigan thought that Hitler knew.
11 MR IRVING:     You come to Christa Schroeder?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, page 652. I did this very hastily, I am afraid, just
13after the lunch. Speaking to Gita Szereni, of course,
14Hitler knew it was all his ideas, his orders who remembers
15a particular incident.
16 MR IRVING:     Christa Schroeder was pretty frank with me, was she
17not, Hitler's private secretary? She told me about Hitler
18after the Night of the Long Knives and things like that.
19I remember: "I have had a shower and I feel as clean as
20new born baby", episodes like that.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     On that particular incident, yes. That was some years
22before, I believe, not in 1977. In other words, it was
23earlier, was it not?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Schroeder is again categorical. Hitler knew
25perfectly well he had been told by Himmler.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

.        P-138



 1 MR IRVING:     Where is this?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The top of page 650.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is the book by Christa Schroeder, is it?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it is an interview by Gita Szereni with Christa
 5Schroeder in an article Szereni wrote about your work.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware that I am conducting a libel action against
 7Gita Szereni?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What has that got to do with this case?
10 MR IRVING:     The following question will explain, my Lord.
11I have asked for her notes on the discussion with
12Schroeder by way of discovery and she has said that no
13notes were taken. Are you aware of that?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You would have to show me the correspondence before I will
15believe you, Mr Irving.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     She must have taped it; she could not have
17kept it all in her head, Mr Irving?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Tape recorders did exist in 1977.
19 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I do not consider Gita Szereni to be
20either a neutral or a reliable observer. I knew Christa
21Schroeder extremely well. I persuaded her to talk me in
22very great detail over a period of 10 years. She wrote to
23me from her death bed. Your Lordship is aware that she
24gave me as a gift a prized possession of a Hitler
25self-portrait, that kind of thing, so a lot of what you
26can read here about Christa Schroeder has to be taken very

.        P-139



 1much cum grano salis, in my submission.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     When did she die?
 3 MR IRVING:     In 1984, June.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think that I do not dismiss this as being Miss Szereni's
 5invention. I do not think that Miss Szereni invents
 6things.
 7 MR IRVING:     Until and unless Miss Szereni can produce the
 8notes, and ----
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not necessarily notes; it could be tape recordings.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- I am sure that every effort was made the Defence in
11this action to produce the notes from her of this alleged
12interview and these alleged remarks by Christa Schroeder,
13I am afraid you and I must agree to differ on that.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I will believe it when you show the correspondence
15relating to the notes.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Would you care to deal with it this way,
17Mr Irving? Would you like to put to Professor Evans
18exactly what your case is? Is it your case that there is
19not any record, whether tapes, notes or anything, of Gita
20Szereni's interview with Christa Schroeder and she is, in
21fact, making the whole thing up?
22 MR IRVING:     Yes.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Because I think that should be put clearly,
24because she is still alive and well. Put your case, would
25you?
26 MR IRVING:     Yes. As stated in your report, your expert report,

.        P-140



 1this relies entirely on one published source by Gita
 2Szereni. Is that correct?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     This passage on page 652.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Where there are lengthy previous quotations?
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Quotations from Christa Schroeder.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you or your researchers make any attempt to obtain
 9from Gita Szereni, who lives in London, any original notes
10or tape recordings, or other memoranda drawn up
11contemporaneously on her interview with Christa Schroeder?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not see why we should have done so. She says
13clearly that this is in her article. This is what Christa
14Schroeder told her and we have no reason to disbelieve
15her.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware that Christa Schroeder expressed herself to
17me in terms of the utmost contempt for this particular
18author and what she was trying to get her to say?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I am not. You will have to show me evidence of that
20if I am to believe you.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you had complete access to all my private diaries,
22papers and telephone logs?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen no reference to any conversations or letters
25from Christa Schroeder in that vein?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If there are any, I would like to see them.

.        P-141



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. It would be very interesting to see them. I mean,
 2obviously, there is far too much there for us to read all
 3the way through. As I have said many days ago, we were
 4particularly looking at the diaries and telephone logs and
 5so on, with a view, with certain particular questions in
 6mind, and we were not looking to them in order to verify
 7what seems to be a perfectly straightforward statement by
 8Miss Szereni in her article, that this is what Christa
 9Schroeder said to her in her statement and which we had no
10reason to disbelieve, and I still have no reason to
11disbelieve.
12 MR IRVING:     Are you aware of a book called "Hitler Privat"
13written by a Frenchman called Albert Zoller which,
14apparently, is conversations with Hitler's private
15secretary, Christa Schroeder?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is discussed at length in my report.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you draw us to the page, please?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Pages 647 to 651.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen Christa Schroeder's original copy of that
20book with the crossings out and heavy lines in the margin
21and exclamation marks where she has dismissed most
22robustly the statements she is alleged to have made?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is much too sweeping, Mr Irving.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, the answer is no, is it?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I am trying to give you an answer, if you will let me.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, wait for it.

.        P-142



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     So many of your questions do require a lengthy answer. It
 2is on page 649 that I describe the critical addition in
 31985, where Frau Schroeder tells the Editor, Anton
 4Joachimstahler, the exact nature of the book produced by
 5Zoller, which leads to conclusions about 160-70 pages
 6originated by Frau Schroeder, although some of those are
 7distorted or amended more, in a greater or lesser vein, by
 8Zoller.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you, in that circumstance, attach any value whatever
10to the Zoller book?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, of course, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you show straightaway what was said by her and what
13has been said by Schroeder?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is a complex -- well, because we know in her copy the
15pages she has crossed out were not by her, so at least we
16have got rid of those extra 70 odd pages which do not
17originate from Frau Schroeder. Frau Schroeder was asked
18with reference to or in the course of the preparation of
19the 1985 edition about these amendments in the pages she
20did write, and she said that she did not doubt the truth
21of the statements in the least, only that they were
22polemically distorted in some details and not represented
23quite exactly. That is rather a convoluted way of saying
24that they are basically her words, but slightly altered in
25some cases or given a slight spin.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was this book published after her death?

.        P-143



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, seems to have been. As you know, books are prepared
 2a long time in advance of their publication. She died in
 31984 and the book was published in 1985. You have argued
 4with reference to some of your books that you wrote them
 5four or five or six years before they were published.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     If Christa Schroeder had any reason whatsoever to be
 7disgruntled with what I wrote or to dispute what I wrote
 8in my various biographies, why would she have continued an
 9amicable correspondence with me until the very last weeks
10of her life?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me try to find it.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which has been in discovery throughout this action. Every
13single letter she wrote me has been in discovery.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes. We have looked at some of them.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 647.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. There she says, that she regretted this and once
17rashly put a part of my, I guess, letters at David
18Irving's disposal. "I passed on (parroted) the judgments
19expressed therein from Hitler's conversations, for
20instance about the Russian mentality. Today I am
21horrified about these views thoughtlessly taken from
22Hitler".
23 MR IRVING:     It is true that she wrote these letters to a woman
24friend. She had a woman friend living in Switzerland, and
25that she had written some pretty harsh judgments on other
26peoples in those letters, and that is what she regretted

.        P-144



 1I had access to.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In the later years of her life. In other words, she seems
 3to have changed her mind somewhat about many issues.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     As people frequently do when they give their most intimate
 5papers to a writer and it is then used in a book.
 6Sometimes they have second thoughts.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is I think probably the explanation of why
 8towards the end of her life she said to Gita Sereny, of
 9course Hitler knew, not only knew, it was all his ideas,
10his orders, whereas she did not say that to you many years
11earlier.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you any indication of the relationship that existed
13between Gita Sereny and Christa Schroeder, whether they
14were on an amicable basis or whether in fact there was the
15utmost hostility between them from the start to the
16finish?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not, no. I do not see how that affects this at all.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It affects it in this way, and I am not quite
20clear what Mr Irving's case is on this. If the contention
21is that Gita Sereny invented effectively everything that
22Christa Schroeder said ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It appears to be that.
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     -- and, when asked for some note or tape recording, said,
25oh well, there is not any record at all of my interview,
26then I think that should be put. Is that your case,

.        P-145



 1Mr Irving?
 2 MR IRVING:     That is, coupled with the fact that the book was
 3published posthumously, the Christa Schroeder book, and
 4the fact these statements by Gita Sereny have surfaced
 5more recently still. Can I ask this question? Is it
 6known to you that Gita Sereny had to withdraw statements
 7that she made in her famous attack on my book in a letter
 8pushed in the Sunday Times?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We could have a look at that. I think it is in discovery
10and we can see which ones. I do not think she withdrew
11this.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it a fact ----
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Of course I go back to the fact that the book was
14published very shortly, the edition of the memoirs was
15published very shortly after Christa Schroeder's death,
16and that the editor clearly had the collaboration of Frau
17Schroeder in preparing the edition, as he says in the
18preface. I do not accept your view, because I think it is
19your view, that Gita Sereny made all this up.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I get back to my question, which is this? Given that
21Gita Sereny in an article in the Sunday Times also claimed
22to have interviewed Dr. Frohlich, and quoted Dr Frohlich
23in quotation remarks and saying various very disreputable
24things about me, and that two weeks later Gita Sereny had
25to publish a letter in the Sunday Times admitting that
26this was totally untrue, is she a reliable source, in your

.        P-146



 1view?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could we have a look at the letter, please?
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     It has been in discovery throughout.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is a problem, Mr Irving. I am
 5reluctant to press you to chase up every document for
 6which Professor Evans asks, and frankly I think we can
 7forget about the Frohlich one. But, if you are saying
 8that there are documents emanating from Christa Schroeder
 9protesting about Gita Sereny, then I think those, at some
10stage I would like to see them.
11 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I have a note of both Christa Schroeder's
12name and Sereny's name.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know it is difficult for you on the hoof
14but can you bear that in mind.
15 MR IRVING:     It is important. I have one more question on this
16particular matter. Christa Schroeder, through the Albert
17Soller book, apparently makes a statement incriminating
18Adolf Hitler in the Final Solution, upon which reliance
19has been placed by people like Gita Sereny.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, is that a question?
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not quite sure what I am meant to ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you agree this is so?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would have to see the documentation for that.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, in that case, let us move on to another name?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Obviously, you are suggesting that it derived from the

.        P-147



 1bits of the book which were not written by Sereny but were
 2based on the interrogations of Heinrich Hofmann, the
 3photographer and Schaub, the side kick of Hitler.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then I will ask this further question. Have you seen, as
 5you say you have seen, all my memoranda on my interviews
 6with Christa Schroeder, which are in the Institute's
 7files?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you agree that I keep very clean records of all my
10interviews with these people, the times, the dates,
11exactly what they said, by numbered paragraphs and so on?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you not seen in one of these memoranda that Christa
14Schroeder specifically disavows that remark by Albert
15Soller and says that she never said it?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would want to see that but I can quite accept that she
17might have said that, had it been derived from the other
18material used in the Soller book, certainly, yes. I make
19that quite clear, that the Soller book is a kind of hybrid
20of interrogations of Hofmann, Schaub and the Schroeder
21stuff, which is the majority of it.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you have another name?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, the famous incident recounted on pages 653 to 4, by
24Sonnleithner and also by Lorenz.
25 MR IRVING:     Sonnleithner replaced Walter Habel, did he not, for
26a time as the liaison officer of the foreign minister to

.        P-148



 1Adolf Hitler's staff?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, Foreign Ministry official, that is right. This is
 3quite a celebrated incident, so that is the last one, my
 4Lord.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much for doing that.
 6 MR IRVING:     Since we are on that Maidonek episode that
 7Sonnleithner relates here, is it not true that Ribbentrop,
 8when he also heard the reports about Maidonek, expressed
 9disbelief in September 1944?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. He is quoted in fact on the next page, 655, as
11saying I did not know anything about the exterminations
12until the Maidonek affair came out in 44.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and that he discussed it one morning with his son
14Roland, did he not?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     As Roland told me, he said his father had asked him and
17shown him a copy of the Daily Mail reporting the Maidonek
18episode.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I am trying to find where I deal with this. I think
20it is earlier on.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does this not rather indicate that Ribbentrop was somewhat
22in the dark until then?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is dealt with.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Either he did not know or he did not want to know what was
25going on?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     On pages 478 to 496 of my report.

.        P-149



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is Ribbentrop on Hitler's knowledge, is
 2that right, Professor?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, my Lord.
 4 MR IRVING:     It is not really about this episode, is it?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not quite sure what are you trying to ask.
 6 MR IRVING:     I am asking whether you have not heard that
 7Ribbentrop always maintained that the first he learned
 8about the atrocities was when the reports came through the
 9foreign press of Maidonek, the capture by the Russians of
10the Maidonek camp.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In 1944 he says -- on page 491 -- that is what he
12claimed, yes. Whether he is to be believed or not is
13quite a different matter.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen any evidence?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, the conversation with Horthy that we were discussing
16this morning.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     We were discussing this morning, where Ribbentrop says,
18"if you are not prepared to lock them up in concentration
19camps the way we are demanding, then your only alternative
20is going to be to shoot them". Right?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, he did not quite say that.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is what it boils down to, is it not?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it is not.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Ribbentrop is saying, either you do what we say or the
25only other thing you could do is liquidate them, meaning
26there is no choice.

.        P-150



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We had better look up exactly what he said.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that not the sense of what he is saying?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not accept your version of it. I think we need to be
 4exact here.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is the whole burden of what Hitler and Ribbentrop have
 6been saying to Horthy, you have a security problem, we are
 7worried that you are going to break out of the alliance?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Back to Horthy, no.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Jews are the biggest problem?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not think they said anything about a security
11problem unless you can point me to it.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am going to produce those documents to the court when we
13go back to the transcript. But is it not true?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The Reichs Foreign Minister replied that the Jews must
15either be annihilated or taken to concentration camps.
16There was no other way.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is right.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you give the reference for that?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Page 441, my Lord, of my report.
20 MR IRVING:     Is Ribbentrop in effect saying you have to lock
21them up as we demand because the only other thing you
22could do is with them is to kill them?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, he is not.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is the difference?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He is not saying, lock them up or we will kill them. He
26is saying they must either be annihilated or taken to

.        P-151



 1concentration camps.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Tell me the difference between those two statements.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The first one, lock them up or we will kill them, says it
 4is putting primacy, the emphasis on locking them up. The
 5second one gives them two equal statuses and does not say
 6anything about what is happen to them in the concentration
 7camps. The words "lock them up" does not occur there.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not possible, lock them away, put them in
 9concentration camps?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it does not occur, not in what he says.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this not a perfectly feasible and reasonable
12explanation of the force that was applied to Horthy on
13that day, saying in blunt terms: You are going to have
14lock them away because, look, the only other thing you
15could do is kill them?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not at all. We are back on Horthy, all right. It is not
17at all what he says. Let us go through this all over
18again. Pages 441 to 442 of my report.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just a second.
20 MR IRVING:     I do not think we need to go through it all again.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Horthy says, "what should he with the Jews after he had
22pretty well taken all means of living from them - he
23surely couldn't beat them to death - The Reich Foreign
24Minister replied that the Jews must either be annihilated
25or taken to concentration camps. There was no other way."
26     Hitler then says yes, "Where the Jews are left

.        P-152



 1to themselves, as for example i Poland, gruesome poverty
 2and degeneracy had ruled. They were just pure parasites.
 3One had fundamentally cleared up this state of affairs in
 4Poland. If the Jews there did not want to work, they were
 5shot. If they could not work, they had to perish. They
 6had to be treated like tuberculosis bacilli, from which a
 7healthy body could be infected. That was not cruel",
 8Hitler goes on, "if one remembered that even innocent
 9natural creatures like hares and deer had to be killed so
10that no harm was caused. Why should one spare the beasts
11who wanted to bring us Bolshevism any more? Nations who
12did not rid themselves of Jews perished".
13     That seems to be extremely open about what is to
14happen to the Jews whom Hitler and Ribbentrop want Horthy
15to deliver from Hungary over to their tender mercies.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     I must protest against this wasting of the time of the
17court reading out time after time after time paragraphs
18that we have already heard.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, that is simply not fair, is it?
20We were on Ribbentrop's knowledge and you suggested that
21the first he knew was ----
22 MR IRVING:     A perfectly reasonable explanation.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     -- in 1944 when Maidonek surfaced, to which
24the witness, as I recall, replied no, it was obvious to
25Ribbentrop what was going on back in 1942 and he cited
26Horthy. That was why it all arose.

.        P-153



 1 MR IRVING:     I agree, and I put to him, not realising we were
 2letting ourselves in for another torrent of quotations
 3from his own report, page after page after page.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is a quotation from Hitler, Mr Irving. I know you do
 5not want to hear Hitler saying the Jews have to be
 6killed. That is why you want to shut me up, is it not?
 7 MR IRVING:     A perfectly reasonable interpretation on the words
 8that were used by Hitler and Ribbentrop to Horthy, which
 9is to say, we are demanding you lock up all your Jews
10because of the security threat, which I shall establish to
11the court with the documents, and the only other thing you
12could do is kill them. In other words, you have no choice
13but to lock them up.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think that is a perverted and distorted interpretation
15which you are putting on this document in a completely
16illegitimate way in order to try and bolster up your
17totally untenable view that Hitler did not want the Jews
18killed and did not know about it.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us move on.
20 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, we are thoroughly familiar with
21the fact that you do not like me but there is no need to
22keep on expressing it again and again and again.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have no personal feelings towards you one way or the
24other, Mr Irving.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we all perhaps calm it a little bit and
26move on to the next topic. We have dealt with the

.        P-154



 1Adjutants. What are you wanting to ask about now?
 2 MR IRVING:     We are dealing just with two tail end questions on
 3the Horthy business. At page 441, footnote 7, you say
 4that Paul Schmidt self serving memoirs are unreliable.
 5Are memoirs sometimes unreliable when you so choose?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I am not using them. It is just a little note.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The answer to that question must be yes.
 8What is the next question?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 MR IRVING:     Thank you very much, my Lord.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not an important note.
12 MR IRVING:     Is a historian who researches, unlike yourself,
13both in the German but also in the Hungarian state files,
14and who finds in Hungarian state files no explicit
15reference to any discussion of killing at this Hitler
16Horthy meeting entitled therefore to assume that this did
17not bulk very large on that horizon?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     At page 451 you talk in paragraph 14 about the effect of
20the bombing raids, in view of the fact that he had
21dismissed them as unimportant, it is highly unlikely that
22these bombing raids roused Hitler to an unprecedented
23anti-Semitic fury. Are you an expert on the bombing war
24as well then?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Mr Irving, I have already said that I have a general level
26of expertise on the Third Reich and the Second World War,

.        P-155



 1Nazism, and historiography. I am not a specific expert on
 2Auschwitz. I am not a specific expert on the bombing
 3war. You could have many different levels of expertise.
 4You could have someone who spends his whole life studying
 5the history of a single village in 20th century Germany.
 6If you want to know about the method of operation of gas
 7chambers in Auschwitz, you ask an expert on that. My
 8level of expertise is at a fairly general level. I have
 9made that quite clear.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     So the answer is no?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not the world's greatest expert on every issue which
12is discussed in these documents. I do not pretend to be.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     The short answer is no. I do not mean that in any
14derogatory sense.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sure you do mean it in a derogatory sense, Mr Irving.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Come on.
17 MR IRVING:     When did the battle of the Ruhr start as it is
18referred to----
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me just try and get across the point of what I am
20saying.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you do not know, just say so.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Mr Irving, this is not "Who wants to be a millionaire".
23I am not going to stand here and be quizzed by you on
24names, facts and dates.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Evans, come on.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I want to try and explain what I put in my report.

.        P-156



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If I may say so, just confine yourself to a
 2brief answer to the specific point.
 3 MR IRVING:     Would you agree that the battle of the Ruhr started
 4around March 5th 1943, with a series of very heavy violent
 5air raids on the Ruhr, coupled with air raids on
 6Nuremberg, which is a city that the Nazis felt very fond
 7of, and that this battering of the German cities continued
 8throughout March and April 1943?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     This may very well have formed the back drop to the
11conversation between Hitler and Horthy? You should not
12therefore dismiss it in the way you do in paragraph 14.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not dismiss it. It is Hitler who dismisses it.
14He says the attacks themselves have been irritating but
15wholly trivial: "Die Angriffe selbst seien zwar storend,
16abere ganzlich belanglos".
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     If he refers in paragraph 17 to the effect of this bombing
18war, we know what the effects are because we have seen the
19photograph on women and children, then no doubt, although
20he is trying to act to his foreign visitors there to say
21this too we can take on the chin, in fact it is deeply
22upsetting and grieving him?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I cannot see that it is, when he describes them as
24irritating but wholly trivial.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, if I am meant to be following
26this, I am afraid you have lost me completely.

.        P-157



 1 MR IRVING:     Paragraph 17, my Lord, page 452.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not see any mention there.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the suggestion? That because of the
 4allied bombing raids Hitler was adopting a particular
 5policy towards the Hungarian Jews? That is an enquiry,
 6Mr Irving. I do not know what you are suggesting.
 7 MR IRVING:     For some reason the witness has put in his
 8paragraph 14 on page 451, he has dismissed the importance
 9of the bombing raids and Hitler's particular feelings
10during the discussion with Horthy.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, my Lord, this is a comment on the 1991 edition of
12Hitler's War. In the 1977 edition Mr Irving tries to make
13the Warsaw uprising as the trigger for Hitler's outburst
14to Admiral Horthy, even though the uprising started after
15they met. So he has withdrawn that in 1991. In 1991 he
16says, "in Hitler's warning to Horthy that the "Jewish
17Bolsheviks" would liquidate all Europe's intelligentsia,
18we can identify the Katyn episode. That is a massacre of
19Polish officers by Russians. A propaganda windfall about
20which Goebbels had just telephoned him. Hitler warmly
21approved Goebbels' suggestion that Katyn should be linked
22in the public's mind with the Jewish question. But the
23most persuasive argument used to reconcile Hitler with the
24harsher treatment of the Jews was the bombing war from
25documents and target maps found in crashed bombers he knew
26that the British air crews were instructed to aim only at

.        P-158



 1the residential areas, only one race murdered, he lectured
 2to quailing Horthy, and that was the Jews. It was they
 3who had provoked this war and given it its present
 4character against civilians, women and children." These
 5are wholly bogus claims by Mr Irving. The word Katyn is
 6not mentioned at all in the Horthy Ribbentrop Hitler
 7conversations.
 8 MR IRVING:     Would Hitler ----
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "The source says that it is not that the British air crews
10are instructed to aim only at the residential areas, but
11to aim at them as well. Hitler describes these in the
12conversations with Horthy, when he is describing these air
13raids on Frankfurt, where the British bombers are
14instructed to destroy residential areas as well as
15industrial targets, Hitler says the attacks themselves
16have been irritating but wholly trivial". Now, if Hitler
17says that they are irritating but wholly trivial, it is
18very unlikely that he is so worked up into a passion about
19this that he indulges in an unusual outburst of
20anti-Semitism. That is all.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you think Hitler was not worked up by the air raids
22on the Ruhr, on Nuremberg and elsewhere? Have you ever
23read Heiber's War Conferences, the verbatim stenographic
24records?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The attacks themselves had been irritating but wholly
26trivial.

.        P-159



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I get a word in edgeways? You have just
 2had quoted to you, Mr Irving, what Hitler himself appears
 3to have said at the time so do you want really to pursue
 4this any further?
 5 MR IRVING:     They are trivial, yes.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you want to pursue this any further?
 7 MR IRVING:     At the risk of being lectured for repetition the
 8fact that Adolf Hitler tells of visiting foreign
 9dignitaries, effectively these British air raids are
10trivial, does not mean to say that he regarded them as
11trivial. Any more than if Winston Churchill had said in
121940 to Roosevelt, these air raids on London are trivial
13and Britain can take it.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Your suggestion is that Hitler was wanting to
15take reprisals on the Hungarian Jews because he was
16alarmed at the effect the allied bombing raids on Germany
17were having?
18 MR IRVING:     My Lord, it is not as simple as that.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is wrong with that?
20 MR IRVING:     It was all in the background of his mind. He is
21dealing with these Hungarians who are being obstreperous.
22They are not towing the line in the way that he expects
23all these visiting dignitaries to do to the Nazi dictator
24so all these things were welling up within him. He knows
25about Katyn. There is no question he knows about Katyn at
26this time. Any suggestion to the contrary is rubbish. He

.        P-160



 1know about the air raids. He has just taken a train right
 2across Germany and seen the devastation of the cities.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is why he talks about killing the
 4Hungarian Jews?
 5 MR IRVING:     I think that comes under the category of increasing
 6the climate of barbarism. It increases the atmosphere.
 7Things that would have been unthinkable in 1939 become
 8more thinkable and that is when you start talking
 9tougher. They are talking tough. They are saying, if you
10do not want to lock them up, what alternative do you
11have? You are either going to have to lock them up or you
12are going to have to kill them, which means effectively
13you can only lock them up.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is there any more on Horthy because I thought
15we had dealt with Horthy this morning.
16 MR IRVING:     No, we moved on from Horthy a long time ago.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I did not take that as a question, my Lord, that I dispute
18virtually everything Mr Irving has said.
19 MR IRVING:     453, Professor. You take it ill that I have left
20out entirely the Hitler Antonescu conference?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, you do not leave it out entirely, Mr Irving.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     The second half of it?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, exactly.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Should I have mentioned every single diplomatic
25conference in which Hitler engaged during World War II?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Obviously not.

.        P-161



 1 MR IRVING:     Obviously not. That is exactly my answer.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But you do mention it.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     You accuse me of having left out the half that matters,
 4the second half.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Because it was in two halves, this conference, was it not?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right. Another two day meeting, 12th April, 13th
 8April 1943, just before Hitler met Horthy.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does this particular conference that you set out on page
10453 add one iota to our knowledge of the whole problem?
11Is not our aim always to try and simplify the issues
12rather than just keep on repeating and repeating?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You discuss the 12th April meeting but you omit the 13th
14April because here again is Hitler giving voice to extreme
15anti-semitic sentiments.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, big deal.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I know you think it is not a big deal, Mr Irving. The
18Fuhrer took the view that one must proceed against the
19Jews, the more radically the better. The Fuhrer said he
20would rather burn all his bridges behind him because the
21Jewish hatred is so enormously great anyway.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it add anything to our knowledge?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I think it does.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which word adds something to our knowledge?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think Hitler's anti-semitic statements here are another
26example of his extreme anti-Semitism at this time, which

.        P-162



 1was not a chance or temporary product, exceptional
 2product, of anger against bombing raids which he dismissed
 3as being trivial or against the Kateen massacre which you
 4do not mention in these contexts. These are just another
 5example of Hitler's extreme anti-semitism.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If Mr Irving is right about the
 7Schlegelberger memorandum, he is talking about a problem
 8that he had already decided should be postponed until the
 9end of the war.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. It does not look very much like that here, does it,
11my Lord, since he is exerting enormous pressure on these
12foreign governments to deliver up their Jews for
13extermination.
14 MR IRVING:     Or to lock them away? This is what the Horthy
15conference is about, is it not?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not about locking them away, Mr Irving. We have
17been through this many times.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have had that argument. Let us press on,
19Mr Irving.
20 MR IRVING:     Yes. But you said to deliver them up for
21extermination, you have no evidence for the second half of
22that phrase, do you?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is what happened, Mr Irving.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     So in other words, you are extrapolating backwards from
25what allegedly happen to the intention of this conference?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     From what happened, and it seems a reasonable connection

.        P-163



 1to make.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, the next point is the deportation of the Jews
 3from Rome, and here again I am not sure whether I have to
 4attend to this or not. I am prepared to attend to this or
 5not. I am prepared to attend to it but I am not sure if
 6Mr Rampton ----
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     On Thursday I think you said that you were
 8wanting to because it was a completely false criticism.
 9 MR IRVING:     Obviously there are bits that I want to take out of
10it but if I can just look at page 457, line 4, the
11allegation or the comment is made that I omitted a
12sentence from the 1991 edition of Hitler's War.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     The SS liquidated them anyway, regardless of Hitler's
15order.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now, is the quality of information on the liquidation as
18good as it is for the deportation as far as Hitler is
19concerned?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are going to have to just slightly set
21the scene for me, Mr Irving. If we dart from one topic to
22another, I have not spent 30 or 40 years on this, so can
23you help me a little bit?
24 MR IRVING:     I will do it in two lines rather than allow the
25witness to do it in 25.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That was what I was inviting you to do.

.        P-164



 1 MR RAMPTON:     I do believe that Mr Irving should stop being so
 2offensive. It does not improve the climate in court and
 3this is a distinguished scholar. He may not be an expert
 4on the Holocaust, and I really do think Mr Irving ought to
 5mind his tongue, if I may respectfully say so.
 6 MR IRVING:     I will do it in two lines then.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is a point to be heeded. I know
 8tempers run high and they inevitably do, but I think, if
 9one can try and keep it civil on all sides, that does
10help.
11 MR IRVING:     My Lord, with respect, for seven days and in 750
12pages of this report, I have had to listen to the most
13defamatory utterances poured over my head by witnesses who
14speak in the knowledge that their remarks are privileged.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is why I said I understand that tempers
16run high, but lack of civility is not the way to deal with
17an attack of the kind that is mounted on you i Professor
18Evans' report. That is all I was saying.
19 MR IRVING:     I would hate to think that I had been uncivil on
20any occasion in the previous seven days, my Lord.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us move on.
22 MR IRVING:     Undeservedly uncivil, anyway.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You were going to tell me in two lines.
24 MR IRVING:     In two lines as opposed to -- well, in two lines.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     A few lines. Do your best. I know you are
26darting from one topic to another as well.

.        P-165



 1 MR IRVING:     On October 6th 1943 the SS chief in Rome said we
 2have received orders to transfer 12,000 Jews from Rome to
 3northern Italy and liquidate them. This message went to
 4Ribbentrop, who dashed across to Hitler's headquarters and
 5back went the message from the Foreign Ministry down to
 6Rome, saying they are not to be liquidated they are to be
 7taken to Mauthausen and kept as hostages.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I know. I have read about it but now
 9you have reminded me, thank you very much.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     My Lord that is Mr Irving's version.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Wait for the question?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I make it clear I do not accept it.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the question?
14 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, which part of that statement do
15you not accept?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, if I can just say that the actual context is that
17the German military diplomatic representatives in Rome,
18which had been occupied by the Germans, the local
19representative there wanted to stop the Jews of Rome being
20killed by proposing that they should be employed locally
21as forced labour in military installations. Hitler
22intervened via Ribbentrop to override them and ordered the
23Jews to be taken off and murdered, which eventually they
24were in Auschwitz. So that what Mr Irving is portraying
25as an intervention by Hitler in order to save the Jews
26was, when one looks at the documents and restores the bits

.        P-166



 1which he suppressed, actually the opposite.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Does it depend a bit what is meant by taking
 3them to northern Italy and keeping them as hostages?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That does to some extent, my Lord, yes, but also
 5Mauthausen of course is notoriously a concentration camp
 6in a class of its own, where the purpose was essentially
 7to kill the inmates off by working them to death.
 8 MR IRVING:     How would you keep 12,000 just as hostages, if you
 9kill them off by working them to death?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let us have a look at the document, shall we? We are
11getting down to business here.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have none of these documents in your head, Professor?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I need ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you noticed that throughout this cross-examination I
15have ----
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, that is unhelpful. If he does not
17have it in his head, I, for one, would not criticise him
18for a second.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I want to be absolutely clear about what the documents
20said, say, and we must look at them in order to do that
21because your interpretations are so often wildly
22implausible. The problem with that is that there seems to
23be nowhere at this time where they could have been kept.
24There is a not a concentration camp there.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mauthausen does not sound as if it is
26northern Italy.

.        P-167



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Mauthausen, no, it is...
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is in southern Germany?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes -- as it was at that time. So, talk of "Upper Italy"
 4seems to be camouflage language.
 5 MR IRVING:     Who was talking of "Upper Italy"? Hitler or the
 6SS?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let us have a look.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     It was the SS, was it not? The SS said: "They are to be
 9taken to northern Italy and liquidated" which is quite
10plain. They do not even use euphemisms, do they?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, that not quite true.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, "liquidated" does not appear to be a euphemism?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not think it is the SS who say that.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Liquidiert"?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I do not think that is the SS. I think it is the
16local consul in ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Consul Eitl Moellhausen?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, it is the local Foreign Office official in Rome. It
19is not the SS who say that.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. He says: "The SS have told us they are going to
21take 12,000 Jews from Rome to northern Italy and liquidate
22them"?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     And the message goes straight to Hitler's headquarters?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     An extremely tactless use of language by this man.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     No euphemisms, no "auswanderung", no "umsiedlung",

.        P-168



 1nothing?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, but, of course, he was trying to stop this.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     What you cannot get around is the fact that the order
 4comes back after Ribbentrop goes to see Hitler saying,
 5"They are not to be liquidated. They are to be kept
 6alive as hostages in Mauthausen". It could not be more
 7specific?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     And all the other messages are irrelevant in that
10connection?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I am sorry, that is not true at all. What you
12suppress is the fact that the local officials wanted to
13use them for, as it says, the telegram 201, "prefer to use
14the able-bodied Jews of Rome for fortification work
15here". So the local Foreign Office and military officials
16are proposing two telegrams, in fact, that it would be
17better business, says the other one, to use the Jews for
18fortification work rather than bringing them to Upper
19Italy where they are to be liquidated".
20     So, let us get this quite clear. We are not
21talking about hostages in Upper Italy. I will read this
22telegramme in full. "Obersturmbannfuhrer Kappler has
23received orders to arrest the 8,000 Jews resident in Rome
24and bring them to upper Italy where they are to be
25liquidated ... (reading to the words)... Please advise
26Moellhausen".

.        P-169



 1     Then another telegram, Field Marshal Kesselring
 2has asked Oberstrunbannfuhrer Kappler to postpone the plan
 3Juden Aktion for the time being, but if something has to
 4be done, he would "prefer to use the able-bodied Jews of
 5Rome for fortification work here".
 6     So that is their proposal that they are making
 7to the authorities in Berlin, particularly to Ribbentrop,
 8and they, in other words, the idea, the notion of Upper
 9Italy, since there is nowhere they could be taken there,
10is, I think, a euphemism for taking them off to somewhere
11like Auschwitz ----
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I help to cut through this verbiage and ask you ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, that is unnecessarily offensive,
14Mr Irving.
15 MR IRVING:     Well, to cut through this particular line of
16argument and say were the ----
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I know you want to cut through this particular line
18of argument, Mr Irving, because you do not like it.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Please continue, Professor Evans?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Thank you, my Lord. There is an additional document where
21on, it says, the local officials in Rome get back the
22message in answer to these telegrams on the basis of the
23Fuhrer's instructions. The Fuhrer's instructions, "the
248,000 Jews resident in Rome are to be taken to Mauthausen
25as hostages. The Heireich Foreign Minister asks you not
26to interfere in any way with this affair but leave it to

.        P-170



 1the SS. Please inform Ambassador Rahn".
 2     Another, still a telegram, again the same thing,
 3taken to Rome -- taken to Mauthausen as hostages. The
 4Reich Foreign Minister requests that Moran and Moellhausen
 5be told under no circumstances to interfere in this affair
 6but rather to leave it to the SS from Sohn Leitner".
 7     And a further or even tougher line, Foreign
 8Minister insists to his local officials that "you keep out
 9of all questions concerning Jews". The SS, they should be
10the exclusive competence of the SS.
11     So what they are being told on Hitler's orders
12is, "Stay out of it. Go away with your proposal that they
13be used locally in Rome on building works." They are all
14going to be taken off on Hitler's orders to Mauthausen.
15     Now, hostages, well, one has to look at what
16went on in Mauthausen. This was, as I said, a
17concentration camp in a class of its own in which murder,
18mass murder by brutality and overwork and malnourishment
19was the order of the day. It had an extremely high
20mortality rate.
21 MR IRVING:     What use is a dead hostage?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "Hostages" I think is a camouflage word again.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Another euphemism, another camouflage word?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Goodness! They are more useful than aspirin, are they
26not, these words?

.        P-171



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Of course, taking them to Mauthausen was a euphemism and
 2in the end they were, in fact, taken to Auschwitz.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have been very reluctant ----
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you want to know what happened to hostages taken to
 5Mauthausen ----
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I take it piece by piece what you have been
 7saying ----
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Outline it on page ----
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let him complete this because once they have
10got to Auschwitz, that is the end and then you can ask
11questions.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you want to know what happened to so-called "hostages"
13taken to Mauthausen, I outline it ----
14 MR IRVING:     In great detail?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- on page 476:
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why not read it all out and waste another 10 minutes?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     400 young men rounded up in the Jewish quarter in
18Holland ----
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have the reference. We have the
20reference.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- taken as "hostages" to Buchenwald and then 348 to
22Mauthausen. Most, nearly all of them, apart from one,
23were killed. That is that happens to hostages at
24Mauthausen. As I said, these ones went to Auschwitz where
25the vast majority were also killed. It is quite clear
26this Hitler knew that would happen to them.

.        P-172



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Now, that was a long answer and now,
 2Mr Irving, you have had the case spelled out, as it were
 3and ----
 4 MR IRVING:     And I have also read it and your Lordship has read
 5it and I do not think it really needed to be read out.
 6Still, here we go with some short questions and let us
 7have some short answers, please. Kesselring wanted to use
 8them for fortification work, is that right?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Were they used for fortification work?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     So that was a rather needless detour in this particular
13argument, was it not?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, absolutely not.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, Mr Irving, that will not do. We have to
16tackle this point properly if it is going to be tackled at
17all. As I understand what the witness is saying, he is
18saying that, basically, those on the ground in Rome,
19including Kesselring, wherever he may have been -- in
20Italy?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     General.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, all basically wanted the Jews to stay in Rome?
23 MR IRVING:     For whatever reason they wanted them kept alive.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     For whatever reason.
25 MR IRVING:     They wanted them kept alive and not liquidated.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     One of the points he makes is that when it is

.        P-173



 1sent up to Hitler, they do not remain in Rome as a result
 2of Hitler being consulted, they go north for whatever
 3fate. So Kesselring's attitude towards the Jews is
 4relevant, is it not? Can you not see why the Professor
 5says that?
 6 MR IRVING:     I see those telegrams in Rome as being purely
 7evidence that different people in Rome advance different,
 8all very plausible, reasons why these Jews should not be
 9rounded up and liquidated, which is what the SS wanted,
10but they should be kept alive, and Kesselring, who was a
11decent chap, said, "Well, I can use them for
12fortifications, let us use them for that, let us put that
13in the telegram" or whatever, and all of this, to all of
14this, and I say this quite boldly knowing that it will
15provoke the wrong reaction, I attach no significant
16whatsoever and far less significance than the fact that
17Ribbentrop took the message to Hitler, as we know from
18Hitler's register, the register kept by Heinz Linge, of
19the visits by Ribbentrop that day, and back came the
20telegram from Hitler's headquarters, effectively, back to
21Rome saying, "They are not to be liquidated. They are to
22be taken to Mauthausen", and I rely on this, "as
23hostages", and I emphasise hostages have, by their very
24nature, to be kept alive, so whether or not Mauthausen was
25a highly infectious place to be sent, or a place where
26people died like flies, which is unfortunately true, is

.        P-174



 1neither here nor there; what is significant is that the
 2message from Hitler to Ribbentrop clearly was, "See that
 3they are taken to Mauthausen and kept alive, we can use
 4them as hostages". I then also rely on the fact that,
 5notwithstanding that this very clear order is in the files
 6(which I understand the Defence have great problems with
 7because it is much better than this kind of memoir quality
 8of document that they rely upon) notwithstanding that,
 9these orders from Hitler are flagrantly violated and they
10are taken off to Mauthausen, but 1,000 of them are rounded
11up, 1035, or thereabouts, that is all they can get their
12hands on, because in the meantime the local officials have
13managed to let the Jews escape, and the 1,000 are taken
14elsewhere and they are never seen again. They are taken
15to Auschwitz or somewhere. This is another, to my mind,
16highly significant fact that Hitler's orders have been
17violated.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If may say so, Mr Irving, that was not a
19question, and I do not criticize you at all for that
20because you have set out your case as clearly a Professor
21Evans set out his case ----
22 MR IRVING:     Now I will ask the Professor ----
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- and I do not personally see that there is
24a great deal of need to amplify it by lot of
25cross-examination because it all turns on the question
26whether one takes at face value and literally the order

.        P-175



 1that they are to be taken no Mauthausen as "hostages".
 2That is what it comes to.
 3 MR IRVING:     I will ask one supplementary question.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     May I just comment on what Mr Irving said which included
 5several gross misrepresentations of the document ----
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Briefly.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- so I am afraid I really do have to point this out.
 8The telegram giving Hitler's view did not say they are not
 9to be liquidated. That is a complete fabrication that has
10emerged from Mr Irving here. The point is that the
11original protest, as it were, from the local officials in
12Rome are saying that the SS wants to liquidate them, and
13what is Hitler's response? "Leave it up to the SS".
14     Finally, also, of course this is in mid October
151943 and Mr Irving has made it quite clear that from
16October 1943 Hitler knew perfectly well that the
17extermination of the Jews was taking place.
18 MR IRVING:     He had no reason not to know is what I say, of
19course.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You actually have said that he did know.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But, Professor Evans, can I just ask you
22this, I mean, if you look at the instructions that came
23back from Hitler's headquarters, they do say in terms that
24the Jews are to be taken to Mauthausen as hostages?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     And it is true it goes on to say, "Leave it to the SS".

.        P-176



 1That does not mean leave it to the SS to decide what to do
 2with them, or would not appear so on the face of this
 3telegram. It means, "Leave the handling of the hostages
 4and the arrangements", I suppose, "for taking them north
 5to the SS". Is that not a fair reading of the reference
 6to the SS?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, my Lord, well, it is saying, the two telegrams
 8I quote are saying to the local officials: "Keep out of
 9it. Leave it to the SS", and the SS, of course, are the
10instrument through which the Jews are being exterminated.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Who would have arranged for their transport
12north -- the SS, presumably?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The SS, my Lord, yes. The message is quite clear: "No
14local works, no use of labour. Just take them off and
15kill them".
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I follow that point, yes.
17 MR IRVING:     Are you familiar very briefly with the Otto
18Brottigan diary of September 1941 where Hitler agrees to
19the notion that the Jews should be held as hostages ----
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is September '41. This is October '43.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does Hitler frequently order Jews kept alive as hostages
22in bulk, en masse?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There are instances up until the American declaration of
24war -- the declaration of war by Germany on America on the
2511th December 1941 where Hitler does talk, in general
26terms, about using Jews as hostages for the event of a

.        P-177



 1World War. It seems to disappear after that. There are
 2some -- we have already discussed the rather odd idea of
 3keeping a small number of Jews with connections in America
 4in a special camp and keeping them alive. But this,
 5I think, I cannot conceive why these should be used as
 6hostages. It is simply one word. There is not
 7explanation of any larger policy, as you usually have when
 8hostages are discussed.
 9     I think this is simply a little piece of
10camouflage thrown in to try to appease the obviously
11disquieted local officials in Rome where the situation is
12extremely difficult, the Pope is threatening to
13intervene. It is quite clear that the local Italian
14population are extremely unhappy about the Jews being
15taken away and doing their best, such as it was, to
16protect them.
17     The members of the Foreign -- of the Embassy in
18Rome were connected with the German opposition, which
19eventually came out in 1944, the bomb plot. So it is a
20very convoluted and difficult situation. It is not
21surprising that they should want to sugar the pill a
22little bit by describing them as "hostages".
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     We do have several SS documents from this episode, do we
24not, a couple of documents?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there any indication in any of the Himmler files or the

.        P-178



 1SS files that this document from Hitler was regarded or
 2recognized as being camouflage, and that "Although Hitler
 3says, 'Send them to Mauthausen as hostages', we all know
 4what the old boy really wants" is not in any of the SS
 5files, is it?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am going to move on now, my Lord, because otherwise we
 8are not going to cover the ground. Page 491, the last few
 9lines, please, of the main text. You say: "This last
10mentioned claim is an obvious untruth. It is undermined
11by Ribbentrop's knowledge of the activity and situation
12reports of the Einsatzgruppen". Do you remember writing
13that?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     What evidence do you have that Ribbentrop read or received
16the SD Einsatzgruppen reports, the Einsatzgruppen reports?
17The mere fact that they are in the Foreign Office files?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I am relying here on the two standards works on the
19Foreign Office and the Jewish question of the Third Reich
20by Professor Browning.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware that we heard Professor Donald Watt state
22here in the witness box that there were hundreds of tonnes
23of Foreign Office records?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     As I remember, Professor Cameron Watt said that he was not
25really competent to judge on the nature of records during
26the Second World War. His expertise covered the period

.        P-179



 11933 to '39.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware of any copies of these SD reports which have
 3Ribbentrop's big letter "R", his initial on them, to
 4indicate that he has read them?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would have to check that up in the sources that I used
 6which make it clear that Ribbentrop knew of these things.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     In your opinion?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In the opinion of Professor Browning whom you had ample
 9opportunity to question about the matter.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but I am questioning you on your report. You say
11there is ample evidence that Ribbentrop knew, and I am
12asking you what the evidence is and your information is
13second-hand, is that correct?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed, yes. I rely o Professor Browning for that.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 484 ----
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is not the only evidence, of course. There is also
17the Horthy conversation with Ribbentrop which I have also
18mentioned. Page 484?
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 484, you write two-thirds of the way down: "Irving
20is, of course, aware of this exchange which suppresses it
21altogether". What proof do you have in writing that I am
22aware of this exchange?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Because you used the Goebbels Nuremberg diary as a source.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     No, I did not.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right, then "Nuremberg, the last battle" ----
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have used one extract from the Gilbert book.

.        P-180



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. That is note 27 on page 143 of "Nuremberg, the last
 2battle".
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which is one extract from the Gilbert book which is the
 4Julius Schreiber papers. Does that mean to say that
 5I have read the entire book?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     One would presume so, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware that I had in fact Gilbert's original papers
 8when I wrote the Nuremberg book?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. So, in other words, you assume something there which
11turns out not necessarily to be true?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, since you cite the book in your work, I assume you
13have read it.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, two lines from the bottom of that page you say,
15"Ribbentrop writing under duress in allied
16captivity" ----
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, you say that.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- do you accept that he was writing under duress?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, you say that. You say: "Special
20circumstances ... (reading to the words) ... Ribbentrop
21writing under duress in allied captivity" ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     But if you turn the page ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- "and facing an inevitable death sentence has to be
24borne in mind". Well, he was in captivity, of course, and
25he was facing a death sentence.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the physical conditions that the

.        P-181



 1prisoners lived in at Nuremberg?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     No table, no medication, no hygiene, no light, no
 4spectacles and all the rest of it?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I am not sure I accept all of that.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 486: Hitler's last will and testament, or his
 7political testament. This is the one he dictated on the
 8last day of his life, is that right?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     486 -- 5 to 6.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     5 to 6?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We may have slightly different pagination here.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am looking just at the first two lines. My Lord, do you
13have that?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The last five lines of page 485 and first two of ----
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Last five lines on page 485?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, the indented quotation, my Lord.
17 MR IRVING:     I said page 486, the last...
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, the first two of page 486.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     What do you think Hitler meant by the Jews "having to
20atone for his guilt", "the Jew having to atone for his
21guilt even if by more humane means than being burned alive
22in air raids", and so on. What do you think he meant
23by ----
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, let us read the quotation. "I also made it quite
25plain that if the nations of Europe are going to be
26regarded as mere shares to be bought and sold by those

.        P-182



 1international conspirators in money and finance, then
 2Jewry, the race which is" -- sorry, "then, Jewry, the race
 3which is the real criminal in this murderous struggle will
 4be saddled with the responsibility. I further", says
 5Hitler, "left no one in doubt that this time millions of
 6Europe's Aryan peoples would not die of hunger, millions
 7of grown men would not suffer death, nor would hundreds
 8and thousands of women and children be allowed to be
 9burned and bombed to death in the towns without the real
10criminal having to atone for his guilt", that is the Jew,
11of course, "even if by more humane means". I assume there
12he is saying it is not, I mean, it is not bombing and
13burning to death in the towns or dying of hunger. It is
14shooting and gassing.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you think that he is referring there to the Holocaust,
16the Auschwitz, the gas chambers, the cyanide, the choking
17to death, all the horrible things that have been
18described?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Now, I am not saying I agree that it was humane; I am just
20saying he thought it was humane, or appears to say so
21here.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Could it not equally ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He was always, after all, and we have had several
24quotations today, congratulating himself on how humane he
25was towards the Jews.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it not make for greater sense than this rather

.        P-183



 1plausible suggestion that the Holocaust was humane which
 2is what you are proposing?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not proposing it. It is Hitler who is proposing it.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which is what you are proposing is the meaning on this
 5word, to be assigned to this word, that what Hitler is
 6saying that, "We have had hundreds thousands, if not
 7millions, of people burned alive, women and children, in
 8our cities and we have just deported the Jews, booted them
 9out to Siberia", or wherever he thought they had gone, and
10that is what he is referring to when he talks about them
11having had to atone for their guilt by more humane means,
12because the only other alternative is that you are
13accepting that the Holocaust was more humane?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, that is not at all. That is another classic example
15of the way you twist everything to your own polemical
16purposes. I am not saying the Holocaust was more humane.
17I am not making a judgment at all.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or being machine gunned into pits?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am simply quoting Hitler, and Hitler is saying that the
20Jews will have to atone for what he regards as their crime
21of having killed millions of Aryans through hunger,
22burning alive and so on, they will have to atone for it by
23more humane means which, I assume, he means, not explicit
24about it at all, he means gassing, possibly shooting.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, the reason for that is, of course, you say there is
26a connection between that and the memorandum submitted in

.        P-184



 1July 1941 by Ralf Heinz Hupner who says, "Would it not be
 2more humane to find some rapidly working means of
 3disposing of the Jews rather than have them exposed to the
 4privations of the winter?"
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Where do I say that?
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is on page 486 -- I am sorry, 489.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     9?
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you suggesting that the Hupner message was ever shown
11to or read by Hitler? Was it not addressed to Adolf
12Eichmann? Are you suggesting there is a direct causal
13link between the Hupner message and the Hitler ----
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I am not.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     So just a bit of a smoke screen by you then?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it is not a smoke screen. I am drawing attention to
17the parallel there as ----
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or do you think ----
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- as evidence of a wider mind set.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or do you think that the reference to humanity or humane
21is, in fact, an allusion to the blockade that we, Allies,
22imposed on Germany in World War I and after World War I
23which resulted in the deaths of large numbers of Germans?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I see no evidence of that in this statement by Hitler.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     490, in paragraph 11, you cast doubt on the secretly
26recorded conversation between Ribbentrop and a British

.        P-185



 1officer?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Paragraph 11 on page 490?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. Where do I cast doubt on that?
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     490?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right, I have it, paragraph 11.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Irving claims he had a fund of collateral documentary
 8evidence"?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     And you then lament the fact that there is this secretly
11recorded transcript which does not seem to have been
12included in my list of documents, and so on?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I am very cautious there -- conscious I might have
14overlooked it, but it does not seem to be there.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are not familiar with the XP series of transcripts
16which are in my files -- you accept that it is possible it
17was in the documents?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, that is why I have phrased it cautiously there.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 491, paragraph 14, does that paragraph, far from
20being contradictory, not actually confirm that Ribbentrop
21asked Hitler and Hitler denied all knowledge and that was
22the end of it? This is the Maidonek episode.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, no, he is just saying he did not know anything about
24it until the Maidonek affair. That is all it says.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     493, paragraph 5.1.1. I just draw his Lordship's
26attention to the fact the witness appears to be pleading

.        P-186



 1innuendos of words there which is not part of his remit.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I will not pay any attention to that.
 3 MR IRVING:     Page 495, paragraph 5.1.5, if I can find it?
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, that simply says that he is going to
 5deal with the statistics and the numbers killed in the
 6raids on Dresden.
 7 MR IRVING:     Yes. You say that my number of deaths in Hamburg
 8of what I put at 48 -- did I say 48,000, 50,000?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     48, 50,000, yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     And you consider this number to be totally exaggerated and
11perverse and another example of my manipulation and
12distortion?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not a very strong argument, but you do go for the
14highest number available.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is the reason ----
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Which does not seem to have any basis and certainly is not
17----
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you not ----
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It certainly is not borne out by the local investigations.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you not repeatedly referred to the fact that I have
21gone for these 50,000 figure in Hamburg and the high
22figure in Dresden and Fortzheime and elsewhere as an
23example of the distortions and false statistics that
24I introduced?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think this is the only other mention of Hamburg, apart
26from the brief discussion of your use of the exaggerated

.        P-187



 1figure in the caption to an illustration in one of your
 2books.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you now back peddling on that because ----
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not repeated.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you now back peddling on that because you have seen
 6the page from the strategic air offensive against Germany,
 7the official history which I have introduced in that
 8little bundle? My Lord, it is page 9 of the little
 9bundle, pages 8 and 9. Does footnote 1 say in regard to
10the Hamburg air raid: "In addition, there were 2,000
11missing. The total number of deaths was probably nearer
1250,000 than 40,000"?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry, page?
15 MR IRVING:     It is page 9 of the little bundle this morning, my
16Lord.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It does not say which raid this was.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is going to be your answer, is it?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I mean, I take it that is 43, yes. Well, what I
20would say is that a responsible historian should in
21reaching an estimation of the number of people killed in
22bombing raid should look at all the available
23investigations there have been.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you consider ----
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And this is from 1961 which is relatively early after the
26event and does not actually give any source, any German

.        P-188



 1source, at all.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you consider ----
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The German investigations in Hamburg of the bombing deaths
 4came to a much lower figure.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you consider that Sir Charles Webster and Nobel
 6Franklin, the official historians who had the complete
 7captured German and British records at their disposal in
 8writing this multi-volume work, are reasonable historians
 9for another historian to use as a source?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, let me -- two points -- yes, but this is 1961. I
11mean, there have been plenty of German investigations of
12the Hamburg bombing raids since then which a responsible
13historian would use. This is relatively early after the
14event and it does not cite any German material here at
15all.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are talking about Hamburg here, are we?
17 MR IRVING:     Yes, we are talking about the 1943 raid on hamburg.
18Are you aware that volume 4 of this work contains the
19entire police president's report on the Hamburg air raid
20as an appendix?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not cited here in arriving at the numbers killed.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you answer my question?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, in other words, it does have German documents as
25source?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not cited as a basis for the their estimation of 50,000.

.        P-189



 1In fact, the figure they give is 42,600, whoever has
 2reported that. Again, there is no footnoted source for
 3that.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Are you aware that ----
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And their estimate of nearer 50,000 than 40,000 is very
 6much a guess, as the footnote makes quite clear.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     In 1961, of course, there were still the 50 year rule in
 8operation which prevented the official historians from
 9giving sources, is that correct?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, knowing what the sources said?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, they certainly cite sources here.
12 MR IRVING:     My Lord, you can take it from me that the official
13historians in their volumes, the early volumes, unlike the
14later volumes, never gave sources.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But the 50-year rule did not apply to German documents,
16Mr Irving ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you ----
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- at all. It applied ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Answer the question then. As an historian ----
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It applied to British documents.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- and as an expert witness before this court, no doubt
22you have read ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What I am saying is that they did not use German
24documents.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     As an expert witness before this court, you have, no
26doubt, read large numbers of the official histories. Do

.        P-190



 1any of the official histories every provide any sourced
 2references up until the most recent official histories of
 3the intelligence service, and so on, which has changed the
 4pattern?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, well, I mean, that is as may be. The point I am
 6trying to make is that since 1961, whatever they had
 7available to them, and there have been numerous
 8investigations which a responsible historian would make
 9use of in arriving at an estimation of the numbers of dead
10in the Hamburg bombing raid in 1943, investigations
11carried out in Hamburg itself on the local Hamburg
12records.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do we need to spend very long on Hamburg
14because we are really in this case, I think, concerned
15with Dresden.
16 MR IRVING:     It is difficult; each time when I think I have
17established a point to the court's satisfaction, we are
18dragged back down into the morass again, into the swamps.
19Strafing, page 500, I am at a loss here because there is
20no TV set, television, in the courtroom today and I was
21going to provide the court with ----
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You can do it at a later stage.
23 MR IRVING:     At a later stage. It is a five minute segment ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Am I wrong in thinking -- I am trying to
25remember -- have you cross-examined about Dresden
26before ----

.        P-191



 1 MR IRVING:     I have been cross-examined about Dresden.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     I cross-examined Mr Irving about the bombing
 3figures.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I had an idea he cross-examined one of
 5your witnesses about Dresden, but no?
 6 MR RAMPTON:     I do not think so, no.
 7 MR IRVING:     No. I have been cross-examined, but I have done no
 8cross-examination.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     On the bombing ----
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, Mr Irving, I am wrong.
11 MR RAMPTON:     It seemed the strafing to me was relatively
12insignificant.
13 MR IRVING:     On the question of strafing, and you have quoted a
14book by Mr Gurtz Bergander quite frequently, have you not?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware that Gurtz Bergander is (or was at all
17material times) a reporter for the German Government radio
18station? Did Bergander interview any of the aircrew
19members? If you do not know just say so. On page 500
20roughly. If you do not know just say you do not know.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I cannot remember, to be honest.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you read any of my notes on the interviews with the
23British and American aircrew members?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There is an awful lot of them, Mr Irving. I have
25concentrated on what you published.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     But if you are trying to impugn the question whether the

.        P-192



 1British or the Americans opened fire with their machine
 2guns during the raids, then this would be the kind of
 3place to look for the source, would it not?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, yes.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The British opened fire with machine guns,
 6did they?
 7 MR IRVING:     At night, yes, my Lord. It was just typical of the
 8useless exuberance. They would just poop off.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The relevance of that is what?
10 MR IRVING:     Strafing, the allegation of ground strafing. It is
11levelled more directly against the Americans during the
12day-time raids.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what I thought.
14 MR IRVING:     Yes. Page 503.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, I thought you said they did this during the day.
16 MR IRVING:     Yes. Page 500?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not at night.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 503.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Paragraph 2: The witness here was a judge called Dr Wolf
21Rektenwault, that is correct?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is nothing about strafing by British
23aeroplanes.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is Americans.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is the Americans.
26 MR IRVING:     It is left open as to whether it is the British or

.        P-193



 1the Americans.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not left open. It is just not
 3mentioned. It is the Americans.
 4 MR IRVING:     I would not have included that if I had thought it
 5was just limited to the Americans, my Lord. But what
 6I intend to do ----
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It says American fighters.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am mystified why we were strafing at all.
 9 MR IRVING:     Because I am accused of inventing it or having
10adduced it without adequate evidence or the usual kind of
11story, and what I have here is an American television film
12on the Dresden raid in which that interviewed some of the
13people involved.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The point is that you have interviewed
15American airmen who have said they did not strafe?
16 MR IRVING:     I interviewed or corresponded with large numbers of
17the American airmen and I read their Unit histories. It
18is not a major point.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Ah, yes, these are the members of the 20th Fighter Group.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     And other units.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Who, in fact, were strafing i Prague, not in Dresden,
22though you say it is Dresden.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, as there is no television here, unfortunately
24I cannot show the film. So I am going to move on. Page
25503.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How would that help to say whether it was

.        P-194



 1Dresden or Prague?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Because it is a misrepresentation by Mr Irving.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. How would a television film, Mr Irving,
 4help show whether wa Prague or Dresden?
 5 MR IRVING:     Survivors from the Dresden air raid describing to
 6American television cameras how these American planes came
 7up and down the meadows of the river, machine gunning the
 8people on the banks.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I see. That has nothing to do with your
10interviews of airmen.
11 MR IRVING:     I also have interviews with airmen, but it is not a
12point to which I attach much weight as, for example, the
13death roll in Dresden which I think the court is probably
14more interested in.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought that was the real issue.
16 MR IRVING:     Yes. In that case we will go straight to page 508
17which takes us to the death roll in Dresden. Now the
18allegation, if I may summarize it to the witness, is as
19follows. I have given death figures ranging between
2035,000 as the low limit and 250,000 as the high limit and
21a probable figure of 135,000. Is that correct?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Roughly speaking, yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes,. And you think that this was a perverse thing to
24do, on the basis of the evidence before me at the time the
25I wrote on each occasion?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is right. That is to say ti depends as much on

.        P-195



 1how you do it as on the fact that you do it.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you first of all to document number 10 in the little
 3bundle?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Page 10.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 10, yes. Is this a book issued or pages from a book
 6issued by the Press and Information Office of the German
 7Federal Republic, evidently in the 1950s?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     And does it have an ----
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The late to mid-50s.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- introduction by the Federal Chancellor Dr Conrad
12Ardenhau?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It does.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     And page 11 shows his signature on the introduction?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you now go to page 13, does footnote No. 2 say: The
17attack on the city on Dresden which was filled with
18refugees on 13th February 1945 alone cost about 250,000
19dead?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I cannot find this.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have not got that.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is page 12?
23 MR IRVING:     It is page 12 or the paginated number is 154 and it
24is footnote No. 2.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, prima facie, or on the face of it we have a German

.        P-196



 1government book with authority of the Chancellor himself
 2alleging that the city of Dresden was filled with refugees
 3and that there were 250,000 dead?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. This is Dr. Goebbels' figure of course which he put
 5out in propaganda, knowing full well it was not true and
 6was taken over.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is a distinction between Dr Ardenhau and
 8Dr Goebbels, is there not?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, clearly whoever did this has taken that on trust.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is that what you relied on, Mr Irving? Is
11that your case? That is where the figure of 250,000 came
12from?
13 MR IRVING:     My Lord, your Lordship surely does not accept that
14that is the only source I would have used.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No.
16 MR IRVING:     I am talking about the upper end of the scale.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am asking what your source for the figure
18you at one time were ----
19 MR IRVING:     There were very many figures for 250,000.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- favouring as 250,000. Are you saying
21that this was at least one of the sources or not?
22 MR IRVING:     One of the sources. I will now draw your
23Lordship's attention to a document that the Defendants
24have not been able to find, and it is in the
25interrogations of two doctors Fersage and Heard, page 41.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think what I am saying about the Ardenhau figure, my

.        P-197



 1Lord, is that this is I think simply taken over from the
 2Nazi propaganda ministry. There does not seem to have
 3been -- it is only in a footnote.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How would ----
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It does not seem to rest on any very elaborate
 6investigation.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. How would Mr Irving have known that it
 8was just taken from Goebbels?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I did not know that he relied on this.
10 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     No, well, he says he did.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is fairly obvious that 250,000 is the figure that
12Dr Goebbels gave.
13 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Simply because he gave it?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. That is where it appears. This is relatively
15shortly afterwards.
16 MR IRVING:     Was not the figure that Dr Goebbels gave 102,040?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not think it was. Well, he used the figure --
182040 was the figure in Tages Befehl, daily order 47.
19I think Goebbels blew this to up 250,000.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you now look at the document 41 in my little bundle,
21please. This is the integration of the two doctors,
22Versage and Heard. Dr Versage was formerlly a medical
23officer and Dr Heard was a woman physician.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Information on bombing casualties: According to the
26informants the total number of casualties in Germany due

.        P-198



 1to bombing has been estimated between 3 and 4 million.
 2That is an exaggeration, is it not?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It looks like it, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do they continue: The most badly damaged town, in their
 5opinion, is Dresden with an estimated casualty list of
 6250,000? Is that the same figure now?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is another exaggeration, as you would expect from
 8their previous estimate of 3 to 4 million.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     But it does not actually say in this report that is an
10exaggeration, does it?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, it does not say that 3 to 4 million is an
12exaggeration.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     But it does state it as a fact that the estimated casualty
14list in Dresden was 250,000?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it does not state as a fact. It says it is in their
16opinion. So it is a matter of opinion.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     The opinion is that was the most badly damaged town, that
18was the opinion; not that the opinion was the death roll?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. Again that is mere hearsay. There is no documentary
20evidence they provide there.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     As a minor matter they also say that the city was filled
22with refugees?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     So that is two documents that give this upper limit
25figure?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, they are not, well, they are not. I mean they are not

.        P-199



 1contemporary documents. Neither of them is a contemporary
 2document. This one is a mere matter of opinion by two
 3physicians. It does not even say where they are from. It
 4does not look to me as if they are actually Dresden
 5doctors at all. There is no evidence here that they were
 6even in Dresden. There is no documentary evidence as to
 7the basis of the rather kind of casual footnote in the
 8Ardenhau documents. So neither of these is really worth
 9very much at all.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     While we are still looking at the 250,000 figure, you do
11accept of course that I have never, ever said that it was
12250,000? I have said this was the upper limit that was
13given, is that correct?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Has anyone got the Corgi edition of
15destruction of Dresden.
16 MR RAMPTON:     No. I think we only have the most modern version
17which is I forget ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Evans obviously had it at one time.
19 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, obviously, and so did his researchers, but
20I cannot say where it is at the moment.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have probably got the relevant bit. What
22we want is page 225.
23 MR IRVING:     Of the Corgi edition.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
25 MR RAMPTON:     It is in L1, tab 3.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Plus perhaps the footnote.

.        P-200



 1 MR RAMPTON:     Page.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     225.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     That is the 1966 edition.
 4 MR IRVING:     You agree that all of these figures show I am just
 5saying that the upper him limit or the maximum was
 6250,000?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He is just having a look to remind himself.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you read out the bit which refers to the
10250,000?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "Immediately after the war for sound political reasons,
12the Russia occupation authorities broached an announcement
13that the raids on Dresden had cost the lives of only
1435,000 people, and the first postwar Lord Mayor of Dresden
15supported them. In fact the documentation suggests very
16strongly that the figure was certainly between a minimum
17of 100,000 and a maximum 250,000. Hans Voight himself
18estimated the final number would have been 135,000, but it
19now appears that there were other officers working
20parallel to his. On the registration of the victims, for
21example, a police unit with an office just behind ... all
22the evidence is that the figure was actually very much
23higher." Then there are further estimates of 120, 150,
24180, 220, 140, 202,040 and Goebbels' figure of 250,000.
25 MR IRVING:     Do you accept that some of those figures are taken
26dust jacket or blurb material which the author does not

.        P-201



 1write?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is from the text.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is in the text. I have just read the text of this.
 4 MR IRVING:     I am just looking at the quotations page 510 of the
 5expert report.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But we are looking at the Corgi edition.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 8 MR IRVING:     I have another five or ten more minutes of
 9cross-examination, but I want to make sure that Mr Rampton
10has enough time for his re-examination.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I will have plenty of time.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not worry about that, because the
13important thing is that you have put everything you want
14to put, Mr Irving. That is the priority.
15 MR IRVING:     I do not think I will be able to put everything
16I want to put, but I am keeping it within bounds. Page
17508, please. Now you say: "Irving has intimated", this
18is paragraph
 1halfway down, "that he will contest in
19court that estimates of", well, that I will maintain in
20court that estimates of the casualties vary between 35,000
21and 250,000?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do agree that General Kurt Maynart, the City Commandant of
24Dresden, and that Professor Fetcher, the head of Civil Air
25Defence in Dresden, would have been in a position to
26estimate the final death roll accurately from their

.        P-202



 1positions respectively?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not necessarily. We will have to look at it in a bit more
 3detail.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, just off the top of your head, if somebody is the
 5City Commandant or if somebody is the head of Civil Air
 6Defence, do you agree that on the face of it they are
 7likely to be in a good position to know what the final
 8death figure is likely to be?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     One has to know where they were and what they were doing
10at this time.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Where they were, one was City Commandant and one was Head
12of Air Defence, Civil Air Defence?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let us accept that for the moment and let you get on to
14the next question.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, the next question ----
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Accept that they might have been in a good position to
17know.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, at page 19 of the little bundle I have inserted
19fresh copies of the Funfack letters. They have not
20changed at all from the translations I provided before,
21but just for the ease of this particular operation.
22Professor Evans, you are familiar with the correspondence
23that I had with a medical officer or a doctor called Max
24Funfack in Dresden?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     You began quoting one letter he wrote me and then you

.        P-203



 1stopped at a certain point, did you not?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Where is this?
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     On page 520.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     You quoted the letter he wrote to me dated January 19th,
 6which ends: "Therefore, I can give no firm information
 7about the figure of the dead but only repeat what was
 8reported to me"?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then rather oddly you tell us what it was?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That comes several pages later. One has to ----
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is an odd place to break though, was it not?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It comes on page 533 where I quote that last sentence and
14then go on, because that was necessary.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     The City Commandant, General Maynart, spoke on about 22nd
16February 1945 of 140,000 dead.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is the City Commandant?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     How does 140,000 tally with the 135,000 figure that
21I wrote in my book? Is it more or less or about the same?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You know that. You do not have to ask me.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are an expert and I thought I would ask you for an
24expert opinion?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You do not need to be an expert to see
26whether one figure is the same as another.

.        P-204



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor Fetcher of the Civil Air Defence spoke of
 2180,000?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     But of course he then continues to say: "I have never
 5seen written evidence for this"?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right. He advises you to get in touch with him.
 7You could not with Fetcher of course but with Maynart.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     As you know, of course, I had met a man called Hans Voight
 9who had represented to me, and no doubt accurately, that
10he was the head of the missing persons bureau in Dresden,
11and that he had undertaken identification work on the
12bodies for weeks afterwards?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that he thought the good figure, in his estimate,
15would finally reach, the death figure would finally reach
16135,000?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, that is somewhat disingenuous, the way you put it.
18He says that he had been able to clear up the identity of
1940,000 of the deed.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     But did he estimate the final figure what it was likely to
21be?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, he told you that he estimated it as 135,000, but
23I do not think he is a particularly reliable witness here.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you like Walter Weidauer, do you not, who is the Mayor
25of Dresden, this Communist Mayor who tore the heart out of
26Dresden and tore the palaces down and all the churches

.        P-205



 1and turned it into a socialist jewel?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I thought it was the British who destroyed the palaces.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     No. The main parts were left and the central opera and
 4all the rest were there waiting to be rebuilt?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Which they have been of course, starting with the
 6Communists who began rebuilding them. I do not think the
 7fact that someone is a communist totally disqualifies what
 8he has to say.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does the fact that Walter Weidauer on page 515of your
10report described Hans Voight as being a virulent fascist,
11does that qualify what he has to say?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It does seem that Voight was actually thrown out of the
13GDR as a neo-faschist or a fascist. I would put more
14credence in Voight's statement that the indices they had
15drawn up of the dead reached the number of 40,000. That
16seems to me to be more reliable than his then further
17rather wild estimates of 135. He has no source at all for
18the 135, whereas for his 40,000 he does. Of course when
19Voight says that the Russians closed down his office and
20struck off the first digit to arrive at their number of
2135, I think that is just expressing Voight's resentment at
22his treatment by the Russians and the East Germans.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you any evidence at all for this so-called treatment
24and so-called throwing out of East Germany? Did the East
25Germans normally throw people out of their country or did
26they in fact build a wall and barbed wire minefields to

.        P-206



 1stop people leaving?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That was in 1961.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you have no evidence at all for this alleged throwing
 4out of Voight?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am trying to find it. Well, it is Weidauer's
 6description of him.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     The one who calls him a virulent fascist?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you call people fascist in your time?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No actually, not unless I really thought they were. I do
11not use it as a general term of abuse.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     At page 518 you use other words like ecstatic and mounting
13excitement and breathlessly to describe the way that
14I went about my research, is that right, frantic
15marketing?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It appears to be, yes, particularly to the Provost of
17Coventry Cathedral.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     On page 520 now, from the first sentence of the letter
19dated January 19th, which you omit, is it not plain that
20I did contact the Funfacks?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Point me to this, please.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     You said that I made no attempt to contact the Funfacks.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Where is this?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 520. You have quoted part of that letter, but in
25fact you have missed out the first sentence.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     28th February, let us have a look.

.        P-207



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     He writes to me and the first sentence is: "You were so
 2exceedingly kind as to send my wife a copy of your book
 3about the destruction of Dresden. The book has arrived
 4safely and we thank you very much."
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, so this is a letter from -- you had sent him the
 6book, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But then you had not actually ----
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why would I send Funfack a book if not to contact him?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is not really what I mean.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is not it true that with 20-20 hindsight that we all now
12have, thank God, although in some of us our eyesight is
13failing, we can perceive where figures are accurate and
14figures are not accurate?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me just deal with the previous point. You sent him a
16book which is fine, but the point is that you do not, you
17describe him in the book and he is replying to you here
18really in relation to the book which you sent to him, you
19are describing him as Dresden's Chief Medical Officer or
20Deputy Chief Medical Officer, whereas he says he was not;
21he was just a specialist in neurology. He says: "I have
22only ever heard the numbers third hand", and you describe
23him as being a kind of first-hand source. So he has a
24number of objections in the letter to what you say in the
25book.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is not the point.

.        P-208



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What I say here is on your rely to Funfack you had not in
 2fact tried to contact Funfack to establish whether these
 3things were true or not before you wrote the book.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is not what you write though, is it? In paragraph 5,
 5page 520, you say: "From his reply on 28th February to
 6Funfack's letter, it is clear that Irving had in fact made
 7no effort whatsoever to contact Funfack"?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, it is quite clear what that means from the context of
 9the previous quotation and description.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It depends what you mean by "had".
11 MR IRVING:     Yes. Do you agree that Dr Funfack living, as he
12did, behind Iron Curtain in one of the most Stalinist of
13the Eastern European states, Eastern Germany, had every
14good reason to be apprehensive when he was contacted by
15somebody living in the West and sending him presents and
16gifts and visiting him, and this is very evident indeed
17from the reference he makes in the letters to me about how
18he is doing everything now through the authorities, and
19that he had exceedingly unpleasant visits from members of
20the Ideological Committee of the City Commission and
21things like that? Is it not quite plain that the
22situation of terror they were living in?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He is actually suggesting that you contact the
24authorities; not that you contact him through the
25authorities but that you contact the authorities with
26reference to getting further work. I do believe you

.        P-209



 1yourself visited East Germany and visited Dresden under
 2the Communist regime.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you, Professor, every have any contact yourself with
 4Soviet citizens or citizens living in the Soviet zone of
 5Germany at that time or thereabouts?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not in 1965 when I was schoolboy, but certainly under the
 7GDR, yes, I was visitor on a number of occasions.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     It was a police state, was it not?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You may describe it as such, yes, it is true.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, did they have an organization known as the Stazi?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did they have large numbers of political prisoners in
13their jails?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Substantial numbers, yes, that is true.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     So that somebody receiving letters from Western Germany or
16from England was, in fact he mentions in one of his
17letters that it had a stamp on the outside and this kind
18of thing; in other words, he is living in a state of ----
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     May I just ---
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- genteel terror, if I can put it like that?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There is no doubt that correspondence was monitored by the
22Stazi.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     So this is one very good reason that he would have for
24denying that he had been anything at all in the Third
25Reich, is it not?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not really, no. I do not think there is any shame in

.        P-210



 1being a medical officer in Dresden in the Third Reich. It
 2is not as if he was us a Obersturmbannfuhrer in the SS or
 3the concentration camp.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you not read that inference into his second letter
 5where he explains the reason why he is wearing his uniform
 6in the photograph? You remember the famous photographs of
 7the mass relations and there he is in his uniform and he
 8takes great pains in his letter to me to explain that that
 9is the one occasion he wore the uniform because otherwise
10he could not have got through the police cordons? Does
11not that kind of thing in a letter written from East
12Germany tell you anything?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It does not cast doubt on what he says, that he was never
14the chief medical officer and that his knowledge was only
15third hand.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     His knowledge is direct from Klaus Maynart, is it not, the
17City Commandant, and from the Chief of the Civil Air
18Defence who stated their estimates to him and repeatedly
19said afterwards: "We cannot believe these low figures we
20are hearing about now." They expressed their astonishment
21to him, did they not?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, many people did, but there is no documentary evidence
23there. The document we are dealing with is a forgery
24which you knew to be a forgery and yet you present it to
25the Provost of Coventry as genuine.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     When a writer is carrying out research on a subject like

.        P-211



 1this and he establishes contact under difficult conditions
 2with sources as close to the facts as these sources
 3purport it or appear to be, is not perfectly proper and
 4the opposite of perverse for that writer to use the facts
 5and figures that he gives to them?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry, I did not quite follow that question. It was
 7a bit convoluted.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is getting a bit late. We will move on.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you talking about Funfack's own figures
10or the figures he gives from ----
11 MR IRVING:     Yes, precisely, the statements, the figure given to
12him, the quality of the source.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Given to him by Maynart?
14 MR IRVING:     Yes. It tallies closely with the figures given by
15Voight at that time?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is just gossip and rumour.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 544, paragraph 2 line 2, you refer to a letter to me
18from a man called Sperling. Was Sperling an official of
19the Federal German Statistical office?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that the German Government Ministry which is
22responsible for keeping all census and statistical figures
23relating to Germany?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is the West German office, yes, at that time.
25Indeed.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did he write a letter in which he stated that immediately

.        P-212



 1after the attack on Dresden the number of dead was
 2estimated by local authorities at 180,000 to 200,000?
 3Never mind about whether the figure is right or not, but
 4did he write that to me?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Is this in discovery?
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is on page -- you quote it on paragraph 544, your
 7paragraph 2.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I am not sure I have seen this letter.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, where else did you get it from?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is quoting your version of it.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     On microfilm which was in the discovery. It is over the
12page, the footnote 151.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     He wrote that letter to me before the book was published,
15April 25th 1962?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Information of that quality from that German Government
18source, would you describe it as perverse for a historian
19a writer to use that figure?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let us have a look at exactly what this says.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Who was Sperling?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He is an official of the Federal Ministry of Statistics.
23 MR IRVING:     Statistics in Germany which keeps figures like
24this.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In West Germany in the mid-1960s. The figures that
26Mr Irving quotes in his very various works as having been

.        P-213



 1given by Sperling seem to vary from one edition of the
 2book to another one: 180 to 20,000 in one, 120 to 150 in
 3another and then 120 to 150 again and then up to half a
 4million.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     He quotes both those sets of figures, does he not, in his
 6letter, is that right?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Can we have a look at the letter?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where is the letter? Can we dig it out?
 9 MR IRVING:     He quotes the letter actually in the book, in his
10report.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     147, note 147.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, my Lord, I do not think it is.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is that wrong?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     544.
15 MR IRVING:     Page 544, paragraph 2. Unless they misquoted the
16passage from the letter, that is the actual quotation in
17quotation marks which gives both sets of figures.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, to the microfilm.
19 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I only have two more questions now and
20then I am through.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I would quite like to find Dr Sperling's
22letter.
23 MR RAMPTON:     If your Lordship would like to see the document.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you have it available.
25 MR RAMPTON:     It is page 15 of whatever this thing is that
26I have here, tab 3 of L1. It is first of all in German.

.        P-214



 1It is on pages 15 and 16 it is in German, and on pages 17
 2and 18 it is in English. I am afraid I cannot read either
 3of them.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     L1 tab 1?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Tab 3 of page 15. The Professor has not got it.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is this from Goring?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     No.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     L1 tab 3.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Pages 17 and 18.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is the blue numbers.
12 MR RAMPTON:     The blue numbers on the bottom right-hand corner.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Goring at the top of the page.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I still do not have this.
15 MR RAMPTON:     It is tab 2.
16 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the translation appears to be on the
17second and fourth pages.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, page 18. It almost completely is
19illegible.
20 MR IRVING:     I have put a bracket in the margin next to the
21paragraph I quoted and relied upon.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is more literal in the German.
23 MR IRVING:     It is exactly the same as is quoted in the expert
24report.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, what does the last sentence in
26that paragraph say?

.        P-215



 1 MR IRVING:     On the expert report?
 2 MR RAMPTON:     No, in the letter.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Dr Sperling's letter.
 4 MR IRVING:     My Lord, as a result of the shock, the offices ----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think Dr Sperling comes up with a figure of
 660,000.
 7 MR IRVING:     Yes.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, but you say that it is 120 to 150, Mr Irving.
 9 MR IRVING:     "After weighing all democratic factors and
10technical numeral inferences, most probability is attached
11to a figure of 60,000 losses", yes. In West Germany at
12that time the tendency was throughout to quote low figures
13for air raids by the Allies, by the British on German
14cities. This was a very, very clear tendency which
15existed from the end of the war onwards. If I can draw
16one very simple parallel here. When I visited Dresden in
171990 on February 13th to my astonishment the whole of the
18city centre was turned into a huge funeral procession with
19millions of candles descending on the city centre in
20commemoration of the air raid. Something like that never,
21ever happened in Western German. In Western German the
22effect of Allied air raids on the cities was played down
23for reasons of greater politics.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So the government statistician is giving a
25politically correct figure?
26 MR IRVING:     My impression on the reason why he said, "We are

.        P-216



 1inclined to play it down to 60,000", I weighted that in a
 2manner which arose from the fact that I was familiar with
 3the West German tendency to minimalize air raid
 4casualties?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry, he did not say "we are inclined to play it
 6down" or weighting it. He said: "After weighing up all
 7demographic factors and technical numeral inferences most
 8probability is attached to a figure of 60,000 losses",
 9which we know to be a very considerable exaggeration,
10since the generally accepted agreed documented figure is
11around 25,000 to 35,000.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is 60,000 still within my bracket, if I can put it like
13that, of 35,000 to 250,000?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That bracket, but of course in many places you say it is
15between 100,000 and 250,000, in many editions of the book.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     The final matter I want to deal with before turning you
17over to Mr Rampton again with many thanks, is the
18allegation that I sat on the information of the real
19figures for six or seven weeks before turning them over in
20the famous letter to The Times?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Where is this?
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is page 546 or thereabouts.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure that is the right reference.
24 MR IRVING:     Unless your Lordship has a better one?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think there must be a better one.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is Schlussmeldung.

.        P-217



 1 MR IRVING:     I if I can summarize in two lines again what
 2happened. Simultaneously the West German authorities and
 3the East German authorities provided me with high quality
 4documents, giving very specific figures, and the question
 5is: When did I receive these documents and when did
 6I make use of them?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I remember the point, but I do not think
 8that is where it is dealt with i Professor Evans'
 9report.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     547.
11 MR IRVING:     Paragraph 3: "Simultaneously on 13th May the West
12German archivist, Dr Brobart, drew my attention to the
13discovery of a document that confirmed the authenticity of
14the final report."
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Right?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This gives a figure of predicted current death roll of
1818,375, predicted figure, death roll of 25,000 and a
19figure of 35,000 missing.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And the criticism is he top of 549.
22 MR IRVING:     It gets very critical indeed on paragraph 7 on
23548: "Irving was forced to make a humiliating climb
24down".
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. That is not a criticism.
26 MR IRVING:     The word "humiliating" seems slightly critical, my

.        P-218



 1Lord. The allegation also that I disclosed none of my
 2correspondence with Corgi. But I am probably not going to
 3deal with that. I am just going to deal with the
 4allegation that I sat on things for weeks.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Put your question about that.
 6 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, when were the two documents on the
 7basis of your expert report, the East German version and
 8the West German version, mailed to he me?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     13th May and you replied on 16th May.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which document are you referring to?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The Dresden city archivist informed you of the existence
12of the authentic final report of the Dresden authorities,
13the police authorities, on the death roll on 5th April
141966, and you replied that you continued to believe in the
15authority of the daily command signed by Grosse which gave
16a figure of 200,000.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I halt you there for a moment and ask, did they
18actually send the document to me or did they just say:
19"We have found a document"?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Then they sent a document to you on 27th May asking for
21your opinion.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     27th May.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And the West Germans sent you a copy on 13th May. So you
24had a copy in your hands by the time you replied to the
25West German authorities on 16th May.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     So what did the West German send to me on May 13th, a

.        P-219



 1letter saying: "We have found a document" or did they send
 2the document?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It confirms discovery, yes, they had ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     You appreciate the difference?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I appreciate the difference. Yes. Giving a full
 6account of what was in the document.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     What do you mean by a "full account"?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I summarize it on paragraph 3 in page 547. It seems
 9pretty full to me with the figures.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Everybody knew what the Tagesbefehl was and
11there are they saying that actually it says 35,000?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The final situation report, it says 25.
13 MR IRVING:     So what do you say was in the letter from the West
14German archivists, the first one 13th May? He drew my
15attention to the discovery of a document, is that correct?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right. Then it goes on to summarise a letter in
17the rest of that paragraph.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     I wrote back saying: "Please send me a copy of the
19report", is that right?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, and saying that you would give the facts on 16th May,
21saying you realized the implications of the document and
22you were going to give the facts fullest prominence in
23England and Germany to counter what you now said was the
24false impression given by the Tagesbefehl 47 which you
25had said only a few weeks previously to the East Germans
26you continued to believe in. "We have to delay

.        P-220



 1announcement by about a month", you said, "on diplomatic
 2grounds" as the new edition of your book had appeared only
 314 days earlier.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now, when did I receive the two reports, the one from East
 5Germany and the one from West Germany?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, you were aware of their contents by the time you
 7wrote back ----
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you answer the question?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- on 16th May to the West German archives saying that
10you were going to give the new figures their fullest
11prominence.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Should I have just done that on the basis of that letter
13or should I have asked to see the report first?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You clearly thought you were going to and you say you are
15going to just delay the announcement by a month -- six
16weeks is what you ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did I do the right thing which any normal historian would
18do which is to say, "Please", as you have been doing for
19the last eight days, "show me the document"?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, you did not. You said you fully accepted it and you
21were going to give the facts the fullest prominence in
22England and Germany to counter the false impression given
23by the earlier report.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     And did I not say, "Please send me a copy of the
25document"?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Or "Show me a copy of the letter". It does not make any

.        P-221



 1difference to the fact you said you were going to give it
 2prominence without actually having seen the document.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     If the Germans then sent me a copy of the document, can
 4you take it that I asked them to supply me with a copy of
 5the document?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That does not alter the fact, Mr Irving, that you said you
 7were going to publicise the new, much smaller figures
 8without having seeing the document.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I wonder about this, Professor Evans. It
10seems it me, in the overall scale of things, six weeks
11does not seem a desperately long time, and then the
12announcement was made, as Mr Irving says, in a rather
13unusual way by means of a letter to The Times?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, it is not a major criticism, my Lord, at all.
15 MR IRVING:     My Lord, it gets better, it gets better. (To the
16witness): Can I ask you to turn to pages 44 and 45 of the
17bundle, please? First of all, will you accept that I left
18the United Kingdom on May 31st for a research trip on my
19new book in the United States on May 31st 1966?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. That is after you had written to the West German
21archives saying that you fully realized the implications
22of the document and were intending to give the facts the
23fullest prominence in England and Germany to counter the
24false impression given by the inflated and forged figures
25that you had previously relied on.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     As soon as I saw the document, that is obvious, is it not?

.        P-222



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     How could I do this without ----
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You said you were going to do it.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     How could I do this without seeing the document?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is what you said. You said you were going to give
 6it. I am quoting your letter.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 44 of the bundle which is from my diaries. I always
 8knew these diaries would help me. June 16th 1966. An
 9appendix glued in on that page says: "Letters waiting for
10me on my return from the United States", right?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Apparently, I only had 23 letters. I get 170 a day now.
13Does it say No. 22 and No. 23, the first one, a letter
14from the Dresden City archives enclosing a photostat of a
15document, and is the document described there the final
16report?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     No. 23, does it say: Letter from the German Federal
19Archives, Koblenz, enclosing a photostat of the document,
20the chief of the Ordnungs, Berlin?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does that therefore satisfy you that I did not receive
23either of the two reports until June 16th 1966 when, by
24coincidence they both came to me in the same post?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But you had already written to The Times.

.        P-223



 1 MR IRVING:     No, sir.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He had already written to the West Germans, saying that he
 3was going to give the new figures prominence.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, I thought both these pages were
 5for the same date. I see the next one is the 30th June.
 6 MR IRVING:     The next page is 30th June 1966. Is this a page
 7from my telephone log?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it show me telephoning the correspondence editor of
10The Times telephoning me at 5.45 p.m. to discuss the
11letter that they have now received from me?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. This is all fine.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you consider that is a very serious delay between
14June 16th, after arriving from the United States?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think I say it is a serious delay, anyway, do I?
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     You said it was a six week ----
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I say that in your letter on 16th May to the West
18German Archives you say you are going to have to delay
19your announcement that you accepted the new figure of
2035,000 dead by about a month, and you wait six weeks. It
21is not a major criticism at all. It is simply just
22recounting the facts.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you not make a major criticism of the fact that for six
24weeks apparently I did nothing and pondered what to do, on
25your chronology?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.

.        P-224



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that your chronology was wrong?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. It really it is not desperately important. The
 3important thing is, Mr Irving, having accepted these new
 4figures of 35,000, you then went back on them subsequently
 5and reprinted the phoney targets of Filzeem and Fierzig
 6and put your figures back up 100,000 to quarter of a
 7million.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     You accept your chronology was wrong, is that correct?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not. I do not really see why we are discussing
10this.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     You accept that I did not get the reports until June 16th
12and that I had my letter published by The Times already on
13July 6th?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You said that from the 16th May, when you were told the
15West Germans that you were going to announce your
16acceptance of the lower figures, you waited six weeks to
17give them, but I do not regard that, to repeat myself, as
18a major criticism. I am simply trying to say what
19happened. I am trying to give an account of how you deal
20with these matters. That is all.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Thank you very much, Professor Evans. I have no further
22questions.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well done, Mr Irving. You have completed
24your cross-examination as you said you would. That does
25raise a question of what we do about re-examination.
26 MR RAMPTON:     It is really not going to be all that long.

.        P-225



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not really want you to, if I may say so,
 2rush it.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     I have only got four things I want to ask.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is that really all you are intending to ask?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. One of the things, I will tell your Lordship
 6now, I need not do in re-examination, because it is only,
 7as it often is in re-examination, a way of getting your
 8Lordship to look at some stuff which Mr Irving skipped
 9over in cross-examination. I will tell your Lordship what
10it is. I am going to hand in a clip of documents taken
11from the files. There was an argument about whether or
12not Mr Irving was right to have accused the Allies of
13inventing the gas chambers by way of propaganda. There is
14very good evidence in the files that even by 1942 they had
15information that it was going to happen or was happening.
16I will just hand in the clip of documents, so it means
17that I do not have to ask about it. The first part of the
18clip relates to 1942 and the second part to 1943.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where am I going to put this?
20 MR RAMPTON:     Ah!
21 MS ROGERS:     In accordance with the rationalisation of your
22Lordship's files that your clerk very kindly helped with
23----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Rationalization" is not a word I would use.
25 MS ROGERS:     An attempt then, my Lord, on Friday with your
26clerk, you should have a file L1, I hope, and tab 6 may be

.        P-226



 1empty.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is.
 3 MS ROGERS:     If it is, I suggest it goes there and it will be
 4entered in the index accordingly.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, I will be taken through this at
 6some stage, will I?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. We will show your Lordship exactly what it
 8says. They are in effect reports. One comes through
 9Geneva in 1942 from a man called Riegner through the
10Jewish Congress, whatever it is, in Geneva.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I remember that.
12 MR RAMPTON:     There is another one that comes direct from Poland
13in 1943. It is merely to deal with the question whether
14the Brits invented the allegation. Plainly they did not.
15The question whether they used it or not is really beside
16the point.
17I would like go to Reichskristallnacht, if
18I may, Professor Evans, very briefly. It is a file called
19L2, and I am in tab 1, I think. I need to start at page
209, which I think should be what Mr Irving calls the Hess
21message of 2.56 on the morning of 10th November 1938.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The bottom right hand corner. If you want the passage in
24your report, it is page 270 of the report.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Thank you. That is what I was trying to find.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You should not need that, I do not think. I hope not.

.        P-227



 1You remember there was an argument between you and
 2Mr Irving about the meaning of this document?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He contending not only that "gescheften" meant something
 5more than "shops", but the words "oder degleichen" should
 6be attached to the word "ranleg gungen". You remember
 7that?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is right.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You contend on the other hand that it means no more
10burning of shops, or the like?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Exactly.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Arson against shops. Can you then turn to tab 2 in this
13file?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which is the Nazi court report of 13th February 1939.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Reproduced I think as a Nuremberg document, is it not?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would you please turn to the third page where there seems
20to be a record of messages sent during the night, the
21Reichskristallnacht?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would you look at the third entry on that page?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which is page 3, and tell us what it means? First of all,
26give the time.

.        P-228



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is a list -- well, the top says: "On 10th of 11th
 21938 there went out".
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And it comes down to this here a list, "2.56 a.m., the
 5circular of the staff of the deputy of the Fuhrer".
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is Hess?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is Hess, "that, which forbids arson on Jewish shops".
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you. The words "Oder degleichen" seem to have been
 9omitted. Do you have a possible explanation and a
10speculative explanation, as an historian, why the Nazi
11Party court should not have bothered about those words?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. Obviously, this is an abbreviated list with
13abbreviated titles, and they did not think it was
14important to put that on. It is quite clear what its
15central thrust of this telegram.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The reason why you said that it was confined in that way
17to shops and the like and to arson was that there was a
18fear that the German property would be injured by a fire
19started ----
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- damage by a fire started in a Jewish shop?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you said that reflected what Heydrich had said at 1.20
24the same morning?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can I take you back to that then which is pages 4 and 5?

.        P-229



 1Here we better look at your report?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Of tab?
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     4 and 5 of tab 1.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Tab 1.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is for the German. We will look at the English
 6because it will be much quicker which is in your report at
 7page 263. What I suggest you do is put the two together.
 8That is what I am going to do.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is the second page -- no, it is not, it is the first
11page of the German, I think -- second page, page 5. This
12is Heydrich's telegram or telex of 1.20 a.m.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On the same morning of 10th November 1938.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you just on the left-hand column of the German there
17are four (a), (b), (c), (d), yes?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is that what you have translated at the top of page 263 of
20your report?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is indeed so. Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If we just read it (a), it says: "Only such measures may
23be taken as do not involve any endangering of German life
24or property (e.g. Synagogue fires only if there is no
25danger of the fire spreading to the surrounding
26buildings)", and so on and so forth?

.        P-230



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can we then just look because Mr Irving, I think ----
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure I have the point on that. How
 4does that help us to Heydrich's view about German
 5owned ----
 6 MR RAMPTON:     What Professor Evans said in ----
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- shops not to be set on fire?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I just wondered how that cast any light on
10the 2.56 message.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Because that also is a prohibition against the
12setting fire. It does not say any other kind of damage.
13The setting fire to Jewish shops.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I see.
15 MR RAMPTON:     This is synagogues: "synagogue fires only if
16there is no danger of the fire spreading to the
17surrounding buildings". Perhaps, my Lord, what one can --
18I should not really give evidence, but it is an argument
19rather than evidence -- assume is that since Heydrich had
20spoken of synagogue fires at 1.20, Opdenhoff, Hess's man,
21need only speak of shops at 2.56.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I see.
23 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know. The key word is obviously the
24"arson" word. (To the witness): If you would just
25glance at those four headings, Professor Evans ----
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

.        P-231



 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- in the Heydrich telex and then please turn finally on
 2this topic to page 276 of Mr Irving's Goebbels book?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     At the bottom of the page we see this: "What of Himmler
 5and Hitler? Both were totally unaware of what Goebbels
 6had done until the synagogue next to Munich's Four Seasons
 7Hotel set on fire around 1 a.m. Heydrich, Himmler's
 8national chief of police, was relaxing down in the hotel
 9bar; he hurried up to Himmler's room, then telexed
10instructions to all police authorities to restore law and
11order, protect Jews and Jewish property, and halt any
12ongoing incidents". I ask you this. Does that seem to
13you a fair and accurate reproduction of the substance of
14Heydrich's telex at 1.20 a.m.?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it does not, Mr Rampton.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you look over the page, you will see that the footnote
17reference for 43 and I think it is on page 613 ----
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     613, I have it.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It must be a wrong reference.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, it is.
21 MR RAMPTON:     It is a wrong reference.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It should be 3051.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We went through this.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, we did, did we not. We have done the Heydrich
26telex. I am just going to go back momentarily to the

.        P-232



 1Hess's office telex at 2.56. That is further down page
 2277. At 2.56 a.m. you see that, the end of a line?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I just say that the wrong reference is obviously
 4just a slip of pen on Mr Irving's part.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving has accepted that and the right reference should
 6be ----
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The reference to Karl Wolff's evidence has nothing to do
 8with what is in the text. It is simply an additional
 9cross-reference.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I understand that. That was my mistake, a slight
11diversion. Can we go down about quarter of the way down
12277?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We have a sentence which begins towards the end of the
15line at 2.56 am. Do you see that?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     At 2.56 a.m. Rudolf Hess's staff also began cabling,
18telephoning, and radioing instructions to gauleiters and
19police authorities around the nation to halt the
20madness". Again, does that seem to you a fair and
21accurate account of what was in that Opdenhof telegram?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. It is total and obviously deliberate perversion of
23the contents of the telegram.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you would like to turn to page 613 to note 49?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I can tell you that the reference is ND 3063-PS, which is

.        P-233



 1in fact the Nazi party court report of 13th February 1939
 2we first looked at.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Exactly right.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now, Professor, you will need a file called J1, tab 3,
 5page 13.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I have it.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you very much. I just want to ask you, this is the
 8famous or infamous Hitler Himmler telephone log of 1st
 9December 1941?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You do not need your report for this at all. This is a
12question of German language. Do you remember that
13Mr Irving translated or transcribed this entry as (you
14will forgive my German) Verwaltungs Fuhrer der SS Juden
15zu bleiben, except he did not transcribe the first part?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, Juden zu bleiben.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If it had said Verwaltungs Fuhrer der SS Juden zu bleiben
18in German, would it make any sense?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, he said it would not.
20 MR RAMPTON:     He said that, did he?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it would not make any sense.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The second question is a history question rather than a
23German question. As it stands in its correct form
24Verwaltungs Fuhrer der SS haben zu bleiben, is it an entry
25of any significance, historically?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I suppose it might be, if you were writing a history of

.        P-234



 1the Verwaltungs Fuhrer der SS.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But in the overall scheme of things it does not seem to me
 4of shattering importance. Juden zu bleiben, of course,
 5taken by itself, is not grammatically possible really.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I suppose he might have just written down Verwaltungs
 7Fuhrer der SS as a sort of isolated, what Mr Irving calls
 8an orphan. It is difficult to see, I suppose, what it
 9might have meant, is it?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. It just would have meant you can see plenty further
11up there.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Of just notes to himself really. But clearly it is the
14indentation which is reproduced on the original, the next
15page but not on this transcript on the second line, which
16is the key.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, you made that point. Thank you. Finally
18this, and I am afraid it is because it is late and it is
19your last question, it is a little bit cheap. You
20remember the dispute on page 400 of your report?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     About the way in which you translated in the third line
23Dr Goebbels' diary entry of 27th March 1942, "in general
24one may conclude that 60 per cent of them must be
25liquidated". Do you remember that?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. That was today.

.        P-235



 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That was today. Can I just show you, to give you some
 2satisfaction to go back to Cambridge with, what we find in
 3Hitler's War 1991, page 464?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right at the bottom of page, he says six lines up, have
 6you got it, "A barbaric indescribable method is being
 7employed here and there is not much left of the Jews
 8themselves. By and large you can probably conclude that
 960 per cent of them have to be liquidated". Does that
10seem to be a fair translation of the German?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It seems perfectly reasonable to me. Yes.
12 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, those are all the questions I have in
13re-examination.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Thank you very much, Professor Evans.
15That is the end of your quite lengthy spell in the witness
16box. We will resume on Wednesday at 10.30 with Longerich.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. If we finish this file tonight, I assume
18your Lordship will not want it until tomorrow morning
19anyway. We will send it over to your Lordship's room.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, as early as convenient.
21 MR RAMPTON:     As early as possible.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The thing is we will not be able to do it late tonight
23because the courts are not accessible.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I see. What about this recent bundle of
25Mr Irving's? It is called Claimant bundle G.
26 MS ROGERS:     J2.

.        P-236



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     J2.
 2 MS ROGERS:     Tab 9 is empty, if not tab 10. I would like to
 3know which, if that is possible.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Tab 9 has something in it, so tab 10.
 5 MS ROGERS:     Tab 10.
 6 < (The witness withdrew).
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     10.30 on Wednesday.
 8 (The court adjourned until Wednesday, 24th February 2000)
 9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26

.        P-237



  

http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/transcripts/day23/pages6-10/view/printall
accessed 11 March 2013