Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 56 - 60 of 237

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    Wait a minute, Mr Irving. I mean, also the notion that in
 1about ----
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Madagascar?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- transporting Jews to Madagascar is absurd because he
 4had already personally ordered the stop to the Madagascar
 5programme at the beginning of the year and, as for
 6Lapland, that is even more ridiculous or Siberia. I mean,
 7this is just camouflage in his case.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why would the Madagascar plan have been absurd then?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we have been through that many times.
10 MR IRVING:     My Lord, we have one more document I wish to show
11him, my Lord. Would you please go, therefore, to page 23
12of the bundle? Do you know who Hassow van Evstorf was?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You tell me. I cannot see him mentioned.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Hassow van Evstorf was the later Ambassador to the United
15Kingdom after the war. So he was not a neo-Nazi, was he?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not -- where is this?
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     I just say that in advance.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 23.
19 MR IRVING:     Does your Lordship have it?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
21 MR IRVING:     It is the transcript of Hassow van Evstorf.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is van Evstorf's notes?
23 MR IRVING:     My Lord, Hassow van Evstorf's notes are actually in
24this blue volume I am holding in my hand. This is from my
25own archive. Hassow van Evstorf took handwritten notes as
26the liaison officer between Ribbentrop and the German High

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 1Command, so he was informed on an immediate basis of all
 2the latest developments and secret happenings. Two
 3paragraphs from the bottom, he had a paragraph -- this is
 4the transcript of his handwritten notes, April 4th 1942 --
 5"A Japanese enquiry whether they will be permitted to
 6occupy Madagascar", completing, no doubt, the triangle
 7Singapore, Columbia, Madagascar,"has been answered in a
 8positive sense. We would not take part in the operation.
 9We are looking for a joint coalition warfare in the
10Persian Gulf" -----
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry. The significance of that totally
12escapes me.
13 MR IRVING:     Well, I shall ask some more questions. Was Japan
14an ally of Nazi Germany?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     So if Japan had occupied Madagascar, as was envisaged by
17this joint operation by this top level discussion between
18the German High Command and the Japanese High Command,
19then, of course, it would have been perfectly feasible to
20have completed the Madagascar plan?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think that is rather a large leap, Mr Irving.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     So the talk of the fact that ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That depends.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- Madagascar in May 1942 was occupied by the British is
25neither here more there?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The point here is on 10th February 1942 (and we have

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 1already been through this some days ago) the Foreign
 2official who proposed the plan for deporting the Jews to
 3Madagascar wrote that "Gruppenfuhrer Heydrich has been
 4charged with the Fuhrer of carrying out the solution to
 5the Jewish question in Europe. The war against the Soviet
 6Union has opened up the possibility of placing other
 7territories at our disposal for the Final Solution.
 8Accordingly, the Fuhrer has decided that the Jews should
 9be pushed off, not to Madagascar, but to the East.
10Madagascar, therefore, does not need to be foreseen for
11the Final Solution any more".
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are familiar with that document?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is absolutely clear and explicit about the ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask you some questions about who wrote that
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     -- that is from Rademacher.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Who wrote the document?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Rademacher.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did Rademacher ever once in his life have a meeting with
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He says here, "The Fuhrer has decided" ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you answer my question?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Time and again, Mr Irving, if you do not like a document,
24you start saying, "It is a product of his imagination".
25This is quite clearly ----
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Answer my question.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- this is not a top Foreign Office official. It is
 2quite conceivable that Ribbentrop or somebody else has
 3told him that this is Hitler's decision. It does not need
 4to see Hitler to have this decision here. Hitler has
 5decided in February 1942 that the Madagascar plan is out.
 6It is quite clearly not practical.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is very difficult to conduct a cross-examination if you
 8do not answer my questions. Did Rademacher ever see
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the answer i Professor Evans does
11not know, but the point he has made (and you may not
12accept it, Mr Irving) is that does not need to have seen
13Hitler in order to know and to say that Hitler has time
14and again said "Madagascar is off the menu". That is what
15he said.
16 MR IRVING:     May I by my questions now elicit the probable
17source of Rademacher's information? In view of the fact
18that the Rademacher document is in the same file as the
19Wannsee Conference report, right?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not likely, in fact, that Rademacher had simply read
22the Wannsee Conference report in which precisely this
23concept was stated by Heydrich that they are now going to
24be shipping them out to the east, and that Rademacher is
25doing no more than just putting into another document what
26he has read in the Wannsee report. It is nothing to do

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 1with direct information from Hitler. This is now third or
 2fourth hand information?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I not say it was direct information from Hitler, but,
 4nevertheless, I do not think that people in Third Reich
 5spoke so or wrote so, explicitly wrote in memos so
 6explicitly about Hitler's orders and decisions unless they
 7had very good reason for doing so.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     And yet you cannot ----
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     They did not invent these things.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     You cannot wish away that July 24th 1942 table talk by
11Hitler in which he says, "We are going to send them to
12Madagascar". So Madagascar is wrong and this table talk
13is right or is it the other way around?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is the other way around. The table talk is quite clear
15camouflage. Hitler has commented on the table talk on
1613th May 1942 that England is not going to surrender
17Madagascar. He knows that perfectly well ----
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     There were all sorts of places that England was not going
19to surrender ----
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is a total fiction. It is a total fiction.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are talking over the witness and I
22personally think Madagascar is a bit of a side track, and
23I think we have had enough on Madagascar.
24 MR IRVING:     I strongly agree, but the suggestion that England
25could say, "We are not going to surrender", do you
26remember a place called Singapore which was surrendered to

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