Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 51 - 55 of 237

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    I think Mr Irving should ask questions and not
 1make speeches, my Lord.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well ...
 3 MR IRVING:     Is this ----
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The question you are being asked is where do
 5you say Goebbels shows himself to favour the extermination
 6of Jews?
 7 MR IRVING:     "Mass extermination of Jews". The fact that he
 8said, "We cannot have Jews running around Berlin who may
 9assassinate me", that kind of thing, is readily proved,
10but it is these throw away lines that are put into the
11report without footnotes or source notes that concern me.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I will treat that as a question even though in a way
13it was not. It is on page 400, again talking about 60 per
14cent of the Jews being liquidated. Now, that seems to me
15on any measure mass extermination.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Because you say he is quite clearly approving
17what he is describing?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. It seem to be pretty clear, and he goes on to say
19that Hitler approved of it as well.
20 MR IRVING:     I guess the question ----
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me have, let me have another ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- I am really asking is, is there another passage apart
23from that?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     All right, well, let us just go...
25 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, this is very unfair. This is not a
26memory test. This gentleman has written a detailed

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 1report. He summarizes what he is talking about on pages
 2410 to 416 of his report. I am sorry that he did not
 3remember it, but, I mean, really!.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I just got to there. I think I will just direct you to
 5the Goebbels diaries entries on page 412, 414, Jews
 6experiencing their own annihilation, I mean, I really do
 7not want to read all of these out.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do please, if you do not mind, 412, 414?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     14, then the pages 8, 9 of my letter of 10th January, so
10these are some ...
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, what is not clear at the moment to
12me, partly because of that question, is whether you are
13contesting the fact that Goebbels knew perfectly well what
14was going on.
15 MR IRVING:     What I am contesting is that there are many
16passages in his diary which showed that he applauded the
17mass extermination of Jews which is the wording used by
18this witness in his report, but I will now move on ----
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Now would you answer my question? Is it your
20case that Goebbels did not know about the mass
21exterminations that were going on at this time?
22 MR IRVING:     He had visited the Baltic states. He had actually
23heard about executions that had gone on there, just
24briefly. That was November 1941. He had received this SD
25report. He had received the Wannsee Conference report
26which was ambiguous. He had received this SD report on

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 1March 27th 1942 which gives him cause to speculate on what
 2is obviously happening, if I can put it like that.
 3THE WITNESS: But in Hitler's War 1977, Mr Irving, you write:
 4"The ghastly secrets of Auschwitz and Treblinka were
 5well-kept. Goebbels wrote a frank summary of them in his
 6diary on March 27th 1942, but evidently held his tongue
 7when he met Hitler two days later".
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And you talk again in that 1991 in a similar way so...
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I draw your attention, therefore, to a passage in
11Picker, Henry Picker, on April 4th 1942 which you are
12probably familiar with. I will read it to you. It was
13"characteristic that the upper classes who had never
14shown the slightest sympathy for the suffering and plight
15of the German emigres", and he uses the word "aus
16wanderer", and you will understand why I am emphasising
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     "... now claim to show sympathy for the Jews, although the
20Jews had their accomplices around the entire world and
21were the most climate hardened species there were. The
22Jews prospered everywhere", he said, "in even Lapland and
23Siberia". Does this not also show that on April 4th 1942
24Hitler is talking purely in terms of his geographical
25solution? It may have been a pipe dream.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, no, it does not. I mean, there are murderous

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 1statements here. He is attacking the so-called
 2bourgeoisie, and even here it says, "If for reasons of
 3State, one renders a definite racial pest harmless, for
 4example, by beating him to death", very nice, "then the
 5entire bourgeoisie cries out that the State is a violent
 6State. If, however, the Jew", and here, well, "the Jew
 7with judicial chicanery robs the German person of his
 8professional existence, takes his house and home from him,
 9destroys his family and finally drives him to emigration,
10and the German person then loses his life on the journey
11to his emigration destination, then the bourgeoisie ...
12(reading to the words) ... entire tragedy has been played
13out within the context of the possibilities offered by the
14law." And earlier on, of course -- that, of course,
15describes in a kind of upside-down way precisely what the
16Nazis were doing to the Jews themselves. And on talking
17about -- another bit that you left out, Mr Irving, he is
18talking about Hitler (again absurdly) that "the
19Bourgeoisie did not concern itself with the fact that
20250,000 to 300,000 German people were emigrating from
21Germany a year", that meant, I think, in the late 19th
22century, "and about 75 per cent of the German emigrants to
23Australia already died during the journey". That is more
24even than Goebbels 60 per cent. Emigration here, in
25Hitler's mind ----
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     So what conclusions do you draw from these lengthy

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 1passages you are reading out?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Emigration in Hitler's mind here is quite clearly
 3connected with mass death.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is the conclusion? Purely that emigration is
 5connected with mass death?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It seems be in this passage, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you agree that Hitler was considering geographical
 8emigration every time he mentions these passages at this
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, connected with mass death. I mean, you take Jews
11from France or Serbia or Greece and you take them to
12Poland, that is mass emigration, but that is not all that
13happened, is it? They were killed when they got there.
14The two things are connected.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you are saying that when Hitler is talking about them
16emigrating to Lapland or Siberia or Central Africa, or all
17these other places he is talking about, or Madagascar,
18what he is saying is he will arrange that they get killed
19when they get there? What is the point of the emigration
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. There is also an element of camouflage in simply
22using the term "emigration" or "transportation", so ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     So your entire case depends on the fact that when he says
24one thing he means another ----
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Wait a minute, Mr Irving. I mean, also the notion that in
26the middle of 1942 that Hitler was actually serious

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