Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 46 - 50 of 237

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Suddenly in the middle of it you say Goebbels sort of
 3flips into reproducing the table talk of the 29th May?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not reproducing, my Lord. He is really summarizing
 5two different conversations, one he has had with Hitler
 6alone it appears, or in a very small group of people, and
 7the second one simply goes on seamlessly.
 8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is what is so odd about it, why should he go on
 9seamlessly to do that when it is inconsistent with what is
10in the earlier part, which you say is straight forward
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It seems strange, but I think there are similarities
13between what he says there in the second part of that, and
14the table talk. They are too striking to allow of any
15other conclusion.
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I accept that, but what strikes me as odd is that he
17should reproduce in his diary camouflage language used by
18Hitler in his table talk.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     These are the golden words of his Fuhrer. He will put
20them down because he has heard them to preserve them for
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But they do not mean what they say?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
24 MR IRVING:     You are saying that the whole of this talk about
25Siberia and central Africa and so on is hog wash?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you have any evidence for that kind of thought? Is
 2that just your speculation again?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The evidence is what is going on at the same time. We are
 4talking now the end of May 1942 ----
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     And the killings have started, have they not?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     They had more than started, gassings and death camps are
 7in full swing.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     So either Hitler is totally in the dark as to what is
 9going on, or he is the biggest hypocrite there has been?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would go for the second of those two alternatives, Mr
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you have any evidence for that apart from your own gut
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is quite clear.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Even one line, even one document?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I have already quoted two. Again, comparing the two
17halves of this diary entry, when he links the
18extermination of criminals, the liquidations of prisoners,
19to his earlier talk about the evacuation of the Jews.
20Even here Goebbels is using words like evacuation, but it
21is a give away in the second paragraph.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yet at about the same time at the end of March, early
23April, we have had Schlegelberger document, Hitler wanting
24everything postponed until the war was over?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We have already been through this document at great
26length, Mr Irving, I do not accept what you say about the

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 1so-called Schlegelberger memorandum.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was it not typical of Hitler's desire to postpone tricky
 3things until the war was over, until the fighting had
 4stopped? Did he not do that with several problems?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not see this in this diary entry.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you please look at page 7, and then you will see it?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Page 7 of what? Yours?
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Numbered page 60 at the top.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     I will read to you the middle paragraph in English. We
11briefly then touch upon the church question. Here the
12Fuhrer has reached a decision which is absolutely
13irreversible. He tells me to take care that nothing is
14done, that there is complete silence about the church
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Public silence.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     The hour would come when we would then be able to speak
18more clearly than ever. Is this not another example of
19Hitler saying, "hey, put that on the back burner, too"?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think this derives from the problems which they had in
21the previous autumn with Cardinal von Galen. After some
22discussion, it was decided, Cardinal von Galen's protest
23about the euthanasia, the Nazi leadership decided that
24during the war it would be too upsetting to morale to make
25a serious attack on the church and start arresting
26cardinals and the like.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     I refer you to page 404, to footnote 22 ----
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is my report?
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Of your report.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 404, footnote 22, of your report where you show the
 6kind of problems the Final Solution was causing, mixed
 7marriages, you remember the Gotshalt case, the suicide of
 8the entire family and so on, and Hitler saying to Goebbels
 9try to avoid causing problems?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. We already discussed this at length in talking about
11the so-called Schlegelberger memorandum that, while
12I think the Nazi leadership had little problem in deciding
13what to do with the vast majority of Jews in Europe, i.e.
14kill them, they had a lot of difficulties in deciding what
15to do with Jews in mixed marriages, married to non-Jews
16and with half Jews, and mixed, so-called mixed race Jews.
17That is quite clear. It runs through all
18the documentation connected with the so-called
19Schlegelberger memorandum, and here it is again.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     You rely in your reply to this Goebbels entry on page 402,
21paragraph 5, you refer to a July 1941 statement by Hitler
22about the Jewish family becoming a breeding ground for
23bacilli, do you remember that?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, "Bazillenherd fur eine neue Zersetzung".
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you agree that at that time, of course, there was no
26plan to liquidate Europe's Jews, it was still a

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 1geographical solution, so that is totally irrelevant in
 2this context, is it not?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think it is irrelevant, no. It is a general
 4statement, rather like his statement in a speech of 30th
 5January 1939 ----
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     You put it in as a bit of a red herring.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, it is a very conditional statement.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Hoping that ----
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is an "if" statement.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- we would not remember that your argument is that
11Hitler's speech to the Gauleiters in December 1941 was the
12trigger point. So July 1941, that is totally irrelevant
13to the argument about Hitler's homicidal intent?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think it is irrelevant to Hitler's general hatred
15of the Jews. I am using it there because of this popular,
16this favourite phrase or word of "bacilli".
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     The next question is on page 403, two lines from the
18bottom, and I ask this with great trepidation because it
19may unleash another torrent, you say: "Why did include",
20why did Goebbels include, "so many passages in his diaries
21which showed that he himself favoured the mass
22extermination of Jews?" Where are these many passages,
23which ones are you referring to? I cannot think of the
24"mass extermination of Jews" referred to in many passages
25in the Goebbels' diaries.
26 MR RAMPTON:     

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