Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 41 - 45 of 237

<< 1-5236-237 >>
    Mr Irving, it does not help. This is in fact
 1where the translation is.
 2 MR IRVING:     It disrupts the flow of the cross-examination, and
 3I am sure this is not the intention of the witness but it
 4is certainly the effect.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You will have to bear with me for a moment.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Then may I just go on very briefly, my Lord?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I was about to point out the passage in the third
10paragraph of the Goebbels diaries after the again rather
11revealing sentence, "Therefore one must liquidate the
12Jewish danger", there is that word "liquidate" again.
13Then it appears to be almost identical to an account in
14the table talk for the same day. So Goebbels seems then
15to be switching over to summarizing what Hitler is saying
16in a much larger circle, during a meal, and about how
17little the Jews can assimilate themselves to West European
18life, and so on and so forth. There of course then he
19engages, as Hitler customarily does in the table talk, in
20a much less direct kind of language, and a more vague kind
21of description. Hence he then starts to go on about
22settling the Jews in central Africa and so on.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, Mr Irving.
24 MR IRVING:     I am being enormously patient. We will come back
25to the line of cross-examination. Can I refer you back to
26page 5 of the little bundle? We just looked at the

.        P-41

 1passage, you will remember (44 at the top, handwritten 5
 2at the bottom). I will continue: "That is why you have
 3to liquidate the Jewish danger, whatever it may cost. How
 4little that the Jews are able to assimilate themselves to
 5western European life you see from the fact that, as soon
 6as they are sent back to the ghetto, they very rapidly
 7become ghettoised again". I do hope we are not going to
 8have any more discursions or excursions now.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Carry on with the question.
10 MR IRVING:     Yes. Over the page: "Western European
11civilisation is for them just an external veneer". Then
12he goes on to talk about the fact that among the Jews
13there are elements who go to work with a dangerous
14brutality and vengeance: "This is why the Fuhrer also
15does not want that they are sent to Siberia, that they are
16evacuated to Siberia". The that word "evacuiert" there is
17quite clearly geographical, is it not, not homicidal?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not necessarily, no. The word evacuiert is quite
19frequently used.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     You cannot say "killed to Siberia," can you?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In that context, it must be in its literal
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Evacuated to Siberia, the word "evacuation" can sometimes
24mean by this time it can be a camouflage, or the whole
25phrase "evacuating to Siberia" and all the talk about----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but Mr Irving's point is not here.

.        P-42

 1 MR IRVING:     But under the harshest conditions of life they
 2would certainly become a virile element again, would they
 3not, as he says? He would most of all like to send them
 4to Central Africa. How do you translate "am
 5liebsten"? He would rather send them to Central Africa?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He would prefer to send them, or he would most like to
 7send them.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     If it was "prefer", it would be "lieber", would it not?
 9"Am liebsten" is most of all he would like to send them
10to Central Africa?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Most of all he would like to send them, he would most like
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Most of all, above what? Above Siberia? Above the East?
14Above Riga and Minsk? Most of all he wants to send them
15to Central Africa? Is this what Adolf Hitler is really
16about, as reported by Goebbels?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. He seems to be saying that, and he says exactly the
18same in his table talk.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     You rather toned it down in your translation by saying he
20would rather send them to Central Africa, did you not?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think that is toning it down at all, Mr Irving.
22It is clear from my translation what his preference is, or
23what he claims his preference is rather, in this rather
24camouflaged conversation at the dining table.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     There they would live in a climate that would certainly
26make them strong and resistance or resistive again. At

.        P-43

 1any rate it is the Fuhrer's aim, and I am translating very
 2loosely as I go along, at any rate it is the Fuhrer's aim
 3to make Western Europe completely free of the Jews?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Here they may not have a national home any more?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     So he is talking purely geography, is he not? He is not
 8talking gas chambers, if I can put it like that. He is
 9talking geography. He is saying well, the East, Siberia,
10Africa, anywhere but Western Europe.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes I think this is----
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is real Hitler. This is not Goebbels. This is not
13his gloss, is it?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, nor is the previous account of what Hitler is
15saying. As I say, he is here at the dining table and he
16is really camouflaging. This is camouflage language.
17Quite a number of subjects, as you have said yourself,
18Mr Irving, were taboo at the dining table. Hitler talked
19in very vague terms and on pages 10 to 11 of my letter of
2010th January I quote the table talk for that day at some
21length, which is almost exactly ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     You quote everything at some length.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     You quote everything at some length.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is not a helpful intervention.
26 MR IRVING:     We are very short of time, my Lord, and this has

.        P-44

 1taken far longer----
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The problem is, Mr Irving, I have to quote things at
 3length because you leave so much out that is inconvenient
 4to your thesis.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us skip the argument and get on with the
 6questions and the answers.
 7 MR IRVING:     Do you agree that the Final Solution was top state
 8secret in its homicidal sense, that all the SS documents
 9and the documents generated by the SS gangsters were top
10state secret?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Those are two rather different questions, or points.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     What I am asking about is this. Is this diary being
13dictated to a Civil Servant, a lowly Civil Servant, and
14every day Goebbels is taking him out at the beginning of
15every morning and spending, sometimes it is 150 pages long
16for one day, this diary?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is one likely, therefore, to be able to put, with any
19safety, a homicidal interpretation on any passages in the
20diary if it was top state secret?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     One assumes that, like all secretaries, he was pledged to
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I ask you a slightly different question
24because I am not sure I understand this. The original
25part, the first part, of this diary entry you say is
26private diary entry in the ordinary sense of that term?

.        P-45

<< 1-5236-237 >>