Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 36 - 40 of 237

<< 1-5236-237 >>
    No, I do not think it is an official diary. I think it is
 1writing it down in his own hand, but it is still a private
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was the Final Solution in its homicidal sense something
 4that was top state secret, and not to be written down in
 5private diaries or official diaries?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Which do you mean? Official diaries or private diaries?
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Look at the first page, page 2 in my little bundle. You
 8will see that it starts off with, "Yesterday the military
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, he always start off like that.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     It does not look like a private diary, does it?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He always starts off with the military situation. It is a
13private diary. He keeps tabs on the military situation.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     On page 3, the last three lines, "The Fuhrer has returned
15from his headquarters to Berlin to speak to an officers'
16course in the Sport Palace". So Hitler has come to
17Berlin and Goebbels grabs the opportunity to have one of
18his rare meetings with him?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is right.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     The next page is the part you then began reading?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 4, line 3?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     "I briefed the Fuhrer once more on my plan, to evacuate
25the Jews completely from Berlin"?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

.        P-36

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why does he have to do it "once more"? Why did not Hitler
 2leap at it and say, "Yes, sure, why are we waiting, what
 3are we waiting for?" Why does Goebbels have to keep on
 4putting this to Hitler if there was any eagerness on
 5Hitler's part to deal with the Jews?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Because some were remaining, and it is a new situation
 7which seems to have emerged which has alarmed Goebbels,
 8and which he goes on at some length about later in the
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then he continues. "It is entirely my opinion", gives
11Speers the job, "to take care as quickly as possible that
12the Jews who are working in the German arms factories,
13arms economy, are replaced by foreign workers"?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then he continues with a piece you left out, "I see a
16major danger in the fact that there are still 40,000 Jews
17in the capital of the Reichs who would have nothing more
18to lose, who are running around free".
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there not a provocation, and is it not just asking for
21assassination attempts, if that kind of thing happens,
22then you cannot sleep safely in your own bed? That is
23roughly what it says, is it not?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     If I turn the page, we have now leapt forward.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

.        P-37

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think this is probably the part that you then begin
 2quoting again. Halfway down, "The Germans take part in
 3subversive movements only when the Jews lead them astray
 4to it. That is why we have to liquidate the Jewish
 5danger, cost what it may. How little the Jews in reality
 6can fit in or assimilate to the Western European life you
 7can see from the fact that, when they are sent back into
 8the Ghetto, they very rapidly become ghettoised again".
 9So he is talking about a geographical movement, is he not,
10they are in Western Europe and we are going to have to
11kick them out?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, but this appears to be taken from Table Talk. The
13point about this entry is that it really subsumes two
14different conversations. The first of these appears to be
15a private conversation between Goebbels and Hitler, where
16he says, "I once more present the Fuhrer with my plan to
17evacuate the Jews out of Berlin".
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     What makes you think that this is ----
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, this is quite explicit. The bit you left out
20I will go on: "Once these outrages or assassination
21attempts break out, then one's life is no longer safe".
22I will carry on reading. "The fact that even 22 year old
23Eastern Jews took part in the latest fire bomb attack
24speaks volumes. Thus I plead once again for a more
25radical Jewish policy whereby I am just pushing at an open
26door with the Fuhrer. The Fuhrer has the opinion that the

.        P-38

 1danger will become greater for us personally the more
 2critical the war situation becomes. We find ourselves in
 3a similar situation to that of the second half of 1932
 4where bashing and stabbing were the order of the day, and
 5one had to take all possible security measures to escape
 6from such a development in one piece".
 7     Then he goes on in a new paragraph, still this
 8conversation with Hitler: "The extermination of criminals
 9is also a necessity of state policy".
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, we have had that already.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me give the German. The German gives actually a very
12strong feeling. Auch die Ausmerzung der Verbrechers:
13Literally also the extermination of criminals.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     What does "ausmerzung" mean.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Here it means the extermination -- he goes on to say
16exactly what he means.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     What does "auzmerzung" mean?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Literally "extirpation". It is quite clear what it means
19here. He goes on to say, "Should the war situation become
20very dangerous at any time the prisoners will have in any
21case to be emptied through liquidations so that the danger
22does not arise at their one day opening their doors to let
23the revolting mob loose upon the people". That is quite
24clear there that he means by "ausmerzung" it is linked to
25liquidations and those two are linked to the previous

.        P-39

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     I appreciate why you are putting all this material in, but
 2can we now come back to my question?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, because you do not like this material being brought
 4to anyone's attention do you, Mr Irving? You left it out
 5in your work.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Evans, you are reading from a
 7translation. Where are you reading from?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am reading from pages 8-9 of the letter I sent on 10th
 9January, my Lord.
10 MR IRVING:     I would prefer if we adhere to my
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Pause a moment, Mr Irving. Your letter of
13what date?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     10th January 2000, with amendments to my report.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yet another file which it is not very easy to find one's
16way through. Can anyone help me? I am looking in what is
17called Evans 2.
18 MR RAMPTON:     I think your Lordship might have put this, because
19it is amendments to the original report, in the front or
20the back of the main report. That is where I have put
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Quite right.
23 MR IRVING:     I really have to protest about these time wasting
24tactics of the witness throughout the last week.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, it does not help. This is in fact
26my fault if it is anybody's fault. I am trying to recall

.        P-40

<< 1-5236-237 >>