Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 31 - 35 of 237

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    Mr Irving, if it is your case that Goebbels
 1you ought to say so and, if necessary, give the number of
 2times they would have net, or presumably spoken on the
 3telephone, I do not know.
 4 MR IRVING:     Can you accept that Dr Goebbels, in the year 1942,
 5saw Adolf Hitler about ten times all told? I mean in
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Ah, that is a different matter.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     As opposed to at mass meetings or something like that?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do find it difficult to accept anything you say,
10Mr Irving, without looking at the documentary basis for
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     That makes life easier for you, does it not, but can you
13just answer the question?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It does not. It makes life a lot more difficult,
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     You do accept that I worked for 35 years on the Adolf
17Hitler book and I worked for nine years on the Goebbels
18biography, so that I am something of an expert on both
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The question is how you worked, Mr Irving.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, I am asking you a simple question. How many times
22do you think Goebbels actually visited Hitler in 1941 and
23in 42?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have and I am giving the answer. I have not counted.
25My purpose here is to look at your account and your
26manipulation of this entry of 27th March to support your

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 1argument that Goebbels was concealing information about
 2the extermination of the Jews from Hitler. That is my
 3purpose here.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not the fact that, from 1939 onwards until 1944,
 5after the bomb attempt on Hitler's life,
 6their relationship can at best be described as distant?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. I do not really think that is true.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     In view of the fact that Dr Goebbels as the Minister of
 9Propaganda visited Hitler only about ten times per year
10during those years, is not that a distant relationship?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We do not know how many times they spoke on the phone.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen any references in the Goebbels diaries to
13telephone calls from Adolf?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Or to Adolf, no. I think Goebbels had a good knowledge of
15what Hitler knew and talked about. It occurs frequently
16in his diaries.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you express that opinion, you must have a pretty
18profound knowledge of Dr Goebbels, is that right?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not necessarily, no. I have read plenty of diary entries
20in which account -- these are the diaries entries I read
21in order to check up on the use you make of them. That is
22what I have done here.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you and your researchers read the entire entries of
24Dr Goebbels' diaries?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Of course not. That would have been absolutely
26impossible. It is an enormously long collection of stuff

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 1and that is not what we had to do. Our task was to look
 2at the use you make of certain specific diary entries.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar from the correspondence that has been
 4shown you in discovery that I invited various Goebbels
 5experts, including Dr Frohlich and Dr Friedrich Karbermann
 6and others who have worked on the Goebbels diaries like
 7myself, whether they have come across one single entry
 8which explicitly shows that Adolf Hitler was aware of the
 9homicidal killings of the Jews in the Goebbels diaries?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     The answer is no, there is no such entry?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not accept that.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you not seen this correspondence?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, sorry. The correspondence yes, but I do not accept
15the conclusion that you make of it.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     You accept that they have read the diaries, unlike you, in
17their totality, but you do not accept what they say?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Ah, sorry. I thought you were saying that is what you
19said. Then in that case you have to show me a letter in
20Dr. Frohlich says that he has never seen such a----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us short circuit this. Are you aware of
22any explicit acceptance, or document which shows explicit
23knowledge on Hitler's part of the extermination programme?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I think there is evidence in the diaries that he did
25know. In this particular entry, when Goebbels says, "The
26Fuhrer is the persistent pioneer and spokesman of a

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 1radical solution", what else can he mean, except some
 2degree of extermination, 60 per cent extermination, or
 3more? He cannot mean at this stage, March 1942, that a
 4radical solution is simply deporting them to the East.
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     You read that entry, just to summarize it, as Goebbels
 6saying that what Globocnik is up to is in accordance with
 7what the Fuhrer wants done?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Hitler indeed has been a pioneer, persistent pioneer, of
 9this radical solution.
10 MR IRVING:     Do you agree ----
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     One can also look at the entry of 30th May 1942, which
12I cite at length in the letter of revision to my report
13that I sent on 10th January this year. Here again,
14I think there is a clear indication that this is recording
15a meeting of Hitler with Goebbels, a meeting between
16Hitler and Goebbels, where at the first paragraph Goebbels
17says that he presents the Fuhrer with his plan to evacuate
18the Jews out of Berlin with none remaining, Hitler is
19completely of his view, says Goebbels, and goes on to give
20orders and so on. "I plead once again for a more radical
21Jewish policy", this is on 30th May 1942, "whereby I am
22just pushing at an open door with the Fuhrer".
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have left out quite bit, have you not?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I will read the whole passage if you really want me
25to. I am trying to short things a bit. He goes on in the
26next paragraph to then say, "An extermination of criminals

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 1is also a necessity of state policy", thus implying quite
 2clearly in the previous paragraph that he has been talking
 3about the extermination of Jews. So that is another
 4indication to my mind.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     As you have raised this particular entry, will you go to
 6the bundle I gave you this morning and turn to page 2?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is sometimes quite helpful that you go off on these
 9excursions. Is that pages of the Goebbels diary?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, do you have this particular document?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do, yes. Thank you very much.
13 MR IRVING:     Is this diary a typescript diary on the large Adolf
14Hitler typewriter, or the large face typewriter?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is certainly large, unless it has been enlarged.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     So this time Dr Goebbels was dictating the diary to his
17private secretary, Richard Otty, is that right, the
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I think so.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     He did so since July 1941, did he not?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     So this is not in any sense a private diary any more full
23of top secrets. It is an official diary he is keeping?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not think it is an official diary. I think it is
25a private diary. There are certain things that he might
26feel he cannot say in it, which he could say when he was

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