Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 26 - 30 of 237

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    Then I cannot accept that statement of yours until you
 1actually do point me to the precise points where I rely
 2and refer to that sentence.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you agree that even in the stripped down version or
 4truncated version of that sentence as presented by
 5you ----
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not agree that it is stripped down or truncated.
 7It is an accurate translation, Mr Irving.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you interrupted the question,
 9Professor Evans.
10 MR IRVING:     Thank you very much.
11THE WITNESS: I have to dispute the premise, my Lord.
12 MR IRVING:     Do you agree that in the version of the sentence as
13presented by you, you are, even in that version it can be
14relied upon only as evidence against Goebbels and not as
15evidence against Adolf Hitler? It is the state of mind of
16Goebbels, not the state of mind of Adolf Hitler or the
17state of his knowledge or speculation.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is the state, this is the state of knowledge of
19Goebbels, yes. Who has said that it is anything else?
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this purporting to be a conversation between Hitler and
21Goebbels ----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. Nobody says that.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is Goebbels in Berlin reading a report that has been
24put on to his desk in Berlin, is that not right?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He appears to be reading a report from which he arrives at
26this estimate that one may conclude that 60 per cent of

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 1the Jews pushed out to the East may be liquidated and 40
 2per cent put to work, yes.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why do you say he has been reading a report?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, he says it seems to be that someone has informed
 5about him about this, and maybe somebody has informed him
 6verbally.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I see.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry, I should not have said "reading".
 9 MR IRVING:     My version of Goebbels diary has vanished, my Lord,
10but I believe I am right in saying that the preceding
11sentence, that precedes the part quoted, said something
12like "I have received an SD report", or something like
13that.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If I could see a copy, I could comment on that, if it is
15important. Certainly somebody has informed him that he
16has gained some information from somewhere and he is
17writing down what he has heard.
18 MR IRVING:     There is no indication in that diary because, as we
19said earlier, if there had been, he would have mentioned
20it, that Adolf Hitler had also received this report?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, there is not. There is a statement here in which he
22goes on to link it to Hitler's views, by referring, as he
23so frequently does, and indeed as Hitler himself does, to
24the prophecy that Hitler issued on 30th January 1933,
25that, if the Jews, as he put it, started a new world war,
26they would be annihilated. He goes on to use the language

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 1that indeed is Hitler's favourite language in referring to
 2the extermination of the Jews ----
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     You mean 1939, do you not?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. Did I not say 39? I meant 39 -- a struggle for life
 5and death between the Aryan race and the Jewish bacillus.
 6This idea of a bacillus is a very common Hitler
 7terminology. Goebbels is taking it over here. Then he
 8goes on and says, "No other government and no other regime
 9could muster the strength for a general solution to the
10question". "Here too", says Goebbels, "the Fuhrer is the
11persistent pioneer and spokesman of a radical solution
12which is demanded by the way things are and thus appears
13to be unavoidable". I take that to be the same kind of
14statement as is made about Lammers in what we have called
15the Schlegelberger memorandum. That is to say ----
16 MR IRVING:     Please, can we keep very much to the questions?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not interrupt.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is to say, it is a statement about a number of
19occasions on which Hitler has said this thing, or revealed
20himself to be the persistent pioneer. So it is clearly
21talking about a number of occasions. It is not talking
22about a specific occasion on which he is shown a report
23to, or talked about it to, Hitler. That is what I would
24describe as the link between this diary entry and Hitler.
25 MR IRVING:     You do admit of course that there are other
26passages in these same diaries which show Hitler in

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 1anything but a homicidal mood towards the Jews?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Point them to me, please.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not going to keep on falling for this game throughout
 4the day, Professor Evans, because we have to get through a
 5great deal today.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Mr Irving, I cannot accept what you are saying without
 7seeing the documentation, I am afraid. I think that is a
 8perfectly reasonable thing to do.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am afraid it is. It does slow things down
10but I think, if you put a proposition to the witness, he
11is not inclined to agree to it unless he see the document
12you rely on, then he is entitled to ask you to look at it.
13 MR IRVING:     Turn to page 404 of your report, please. You will
14see several such passages referred to by you yourself.
15Goebbels diary April 26th, May 29th, 1942, Hitler's table
16talk May 15th, July 24th, 1942. Are those non-homicidal
17passages, if I can put them like that?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What I say is that you rely on them to show that Hitler
19did not know about the extermination of the Jews while
20Goebbels himself did.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. We are going to come to that in sequence, but you
22asked me to point you to those passages. I have now
23pointed you to them.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am pointing to the use you make of them, which is a
25slightly different thing.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If we are coming to them in due course, then

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 1let us wait until we do.
 2 MR IRVING:     You are not claiming to be an expert on Goebbels
 3and his relationship with Hitler, are you?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We have been through the nature of my expertise right at
 5the very beginning, Mr Irving.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are not claiming to be an expert on Goebbels and his
 7relationship with Hitler, are you?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think in these pages he necessarily is
 9claiming that.
10 MR IRVING:     Very well. Are you aware of how often Dr Goebbels
11was with Hitler each year around this time? Would it be
12five or ten or 20 times a year?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have not counted, Mr Irving. You tell me.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     The answer is you have not any idea, have you?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is gratuitous. Put the number of
16times.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It seems from the diary entries that I have read to have
18been fairly frequent over the years.
19 MR IRVING:     Fairly frequent. What do you mean by fairly
20frequent?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Would you like to put to me a number? I have not counted,
22Mr Irving. What I am doing here is writing not so much
23about Goebbels and Hitler but about your account of
24Goebbels and Hitler. That is the purpose of my report.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, if it is your case that Goebbels
26was hardly ever seeing Hitler at this time, then I think

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