Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 226 - 230 of 237

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not really want you to, if I may say so,
 2rush it.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     I have only got four things I want to ask.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is that really all you are intending to ask?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. One of the things, I will tell your Lordship
 6now, I need not do in re-examination, because it is only,
 7as it often is in re-examination, a way of getting your
 8Lordship to look at some stuff which Mr Irving skipped
 9over in cross-examination. I will tell your Lordship what
10it is. I am going to hand in a clip of documents taken
11from the files. There was an argument about whether or
12not Mr Irving was right to have accused the Allies of
13inventing the gas chambers by way of propaganda. There is
14very good evidence in the files that even by 1942 they had
15information that it was going to happen or was happening.
16I will just hand in the clip of documents, so it means
17that I do not have to ask about it. The first part of the
18clip relates to 1942 and the second part to 1943.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where am I going to put this?
20 MR RAMPTON:     Ah!
21 MS ROGERS:     In accordance with the rationalisation of your
22Lordship's files that your clerk very kindly helped with
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Rationalization" is not a word I would use.
25 MS ROGERS:     An attempt then, my Lord, on Friday with your
26clerk, you should have a file L1, I hope, and tab 6 may be

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 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is.
 3 MS ROGERS:     If it is, I suggest it goes there and it will be
 4entered in the index accordingly.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, I will be taken through this at
 6some stage, will I?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. We will show your Lordship exactly what it
 8says. They are in effect reports. One comes through
 9Geneva in 1942 from a man called Riegner through the
10Jewish Congress, whatever it is, in Geneva.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I remember that.
12 MR RAMPTON:     There is another one that comes direct from Poland
13in 1943. It is merely to deal with the question whether
14the Brits invented the allegation. Plainly they did not.
15The question whether they used it or not is really beside
16the point.
17I would like go to Reichskristallnacht, if
18I may, Professor Evans, very briefly. It is a file called
19L2, and I am in tab 1, I think. I need to start at page
209, which I think should be what Mr Irving calls the Hess
21message of 2.56 on the morning of 10th November 1938.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The bottom right hand corner. If you want the passage in
24your report, it is page 270 of the report.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Thank you. That is what I was trying to find.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You should not need that, I do not think. I hope not.

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 1You remember there was an argument between you and
 2Mr Irving about the meaning of this document?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He contending not only that "gescheften" meant something
 5more than "shops", but the words "oder degleichen" should
 6be attached to the word "ranleg gungen". You remember
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is right.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You contend on the other hand that it means no more
10burning of shops, or the like?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Exactly.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Arson against shops. Can you then turn to tab 2 in this
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which is the Nazi court report of 13th February 1939.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Reproduced I think as a Nuremberg document, is it not?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would you please turn to the third page where there seems
20to be a record of messages sent during the night, the
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would you look at the third entry on that page?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which is page 3, and tell us what it means? First of all,
26give the time.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is a list -- well, the top says: "On 10th of 11th
 21938 there went out".
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And it comes down to this here a list, "2.56 a.m., the
 5circular of the staff of the deputy of the Fuhrer".
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is Hess?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is Hess, "that, which forbids arson on Jewish shops".
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you. The words "Oder degleichen" seem to have been
 9omitted. Do you have a possible explanation and a
10speculative explanation, as an historian, why the Nazi
11Party court should not have bothered about those words?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. Obviously, this is an abbreviated list with
13abbreviated titles, and they did not think it was
14important to put that on. It is quite clear what its
15central thrust of this telegram.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The reason why you said that it was confined in that way
17to shops and the like and to arson was that there was a
18fear that the German property would be injured by a fire
19started ----
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- damage by a fire started in a Jewish shop?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you said that reflected what Heydrich had said at 1.20
24the same morning?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can I take you back to that then which is pages 4 and 5?

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 1Here we better look at your report?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Of tab?
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     4 and 5 of tab 1.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Tab 1.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is for the German. We will look at the English
 6because it will be much quicker which is in your report at
 7page 263. What I suggest you do is put the two together.
 8That is what I am going to do.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is the second page -- no, it is not, it is the first
11page of the German, I think -- second page, page 5. This
12is Heydrich's telegram or telex of 1.20 a.m.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On the same morning of 10th November 1938.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you just on the left-hand column of the German there
17are four (a), (b), (c), (d), yes?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is that what you have translated at the top of page 263 of
20your report?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is indeed so. Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If we just read it (a), it says: "Only such measures may
23be taken as do not involve any endangering of German life
24or property (e.g. Synagogue fires only if there is no
25danger of the fire spreading to the surrounding
26buildings)", and so on and so forth?

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