Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 221 - 225 of 237

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    Yes, and saying that you would give the facts on 16th May,
 1announcement by about a month", you said, "on diplomatic
 2grounds" as the new edition of your book had appeared only
 314 days earlier.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now, when did I receive the two reports, the one from East
 5Germany and the one from West Germany?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, you were aware of their contents by the time you
 7wrote back ----
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you answer the question?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- on 16th May to the West German archives saying that
10you were going to give the new figures their fullest
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Should I have just done that on the basis of that letter
13or should I have asked to see the report first?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You clearly thought you were going to and you say you are
15going to just delay the announcement by a month -- six
16weeks is what you ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did I do the right thing which any normal historian would
18do which is to say, "Please", as you have been doing for
19the last eight days, "show me the document"?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, you did not. You said you fully accepted it and you
21were going to give the facts the fullest prominence in
22England and Germany to counter the false impression given
23by the earlier report.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     And did I not say, "Please send me a copy of the
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Or "Show me a copy of the letter". It does not make any

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 1difference to the fact you said you were going to give it
 2prominence without actually having seen the document.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     If the Germans then sent me a copy of the document, can
 4you take it that I asked them to supply me with a copy of
 5the document?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That does not alter the fact, Mr Irving, that you said you
 7were going to publicise the new, much smaller figures
 8without having seeing the document.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I wonder about this, Professor Evans. It
10seems it me, in the overall scale of things, six weeks
11does not seem a desperately long time, and then the
12announcement was made, as Mr Irving says, in a rather
13unusual way by means of a letter to The Times?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, it is not a major criticism, my Lord, at all.
15 MR IRVING:     My Lord, it gets better, it gets better. (To the
16witness): Can I ask you to turn to pages 44 and 45 of the
17bundle, please? First of all, will you accept that I left
18the United Kingdom on May 31st for a research trip on my
19new book in the United States on May 31st 1966?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. That is after you had written to the West German
21archives saying that you fully realized the implications
22of the document and were intending to give the facts the
23fullest prominence in England and Germany to counter the
24false impression given by the inflated and forged figures
25that you had previously relied on.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     As soon as I saw the document, that is obvious, is it not?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     How could I do this without ----
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You said you were going to do it.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     How could I do this without seeing the document?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is what you said. You said you were going to give
 6it. I am quoting your letter.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 44 of the bundle which is from my diaries. I always
 8knew these diaries would help me. June 16th 1966. An
 9appendix glued in on that page says: "Letters waiting for
10me on my return from the United States", right?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Apparently, I only had 23 letters. I get 170 a day now.
13Does it say No. 22 and No. 23, the first one, a letter
14from the Dresden City archives enclosing a photostat of a
15document, and is the document described there the final
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     No. 23, does it say: Letter from the German Federal
19Archives, Koblenz, enclosing a photostat of the document,
20the chief of the Ordnungs, Berlin?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does that therefore satisfy you that I did not receive
23either of the two reports until June 16th 1966 when, by
24coincidence they both came to me in the same post?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But you had already written to The Times.

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 1 MR IRVING:     No, sir.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He had already written to the West Germans, saying that he
 3was going to give the new figures prominence.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, I thought both these pages were
 5for the same date. I see the next one is the 30th June.
 6 MR IRVING:     The next page is 30th June 1966. Is this a page
 7from my telephone log?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it show me telephoning the correspondence editor of
10The Times telephoning me at 5.45 p.m. to discuss the
11letter that they have now received from me?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. This is all fine.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you consider that is a very serious delay between
14June 16th, after arriving from the United States?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think I say it is a serious delay, anyway, do I?
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     You said it was a six week ----
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I say that in your letter on 16th May to the West
18German Archives you say you are going to have to delay
19your announcement that you accepted the new figure of
2035,000 dead by about a month, and you wait six weeks. It
21is not a major criticism at all. It is simply just
22recounting the facts.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you not make a major criticism of the fact that for six
24weeks apparently I did nothing and pondered what to do, on
25your chronology?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that your chronology was wrong?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. It really it is not desperately important. The
 3important thing is, Mr Irving, having accepted these new
 4figures of 35,000, you then went back on them subsequently
 5and reprinted the phoney targets of Filzeem and Fierzig
 6and put your figures back up 100,000 to quarter of a
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     You accept your chronology was wrong, is that correct?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not. I do not really see why we are discussing
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     You accept that I did not get the reports until June 16th
12and that I had my letter published by The Times already on
13July 6th?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You said that from the 16th May, when you were told the
15West Germans that you were going to announce your
16acceptance of the lower figures, you waited six weeks to
17give them, but I do not regard that, to repeat myself, as
18a major criticism. I am simply trying to say what
19happened. I am trying to give an account of how you deal
20with these matters. That is all.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Thank you very much, Professor Evans. I have no further
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well done, Mr Irving. You have completed
24your cross-examination as you said you would. That does
25raise a question of what we do about re-examination.
26 MR RAMPTON:     It is really not going to be all that long.

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