Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 211 - 215 of 237

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    Not really, no. I do not think there is any shame in
 1being a medical officer in Dresden in the Third Reich. It
 2is not as if he was us a Obersturmbannfuhrer in the SS or
 3the concentration camp.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you not read that inference into his second letter
 5where he explains the reason why he is wearing his uniform
 6in the photograph? You remember the famous photographs of
 7the mass relations and there he is in his uniform and he
 8takes great pains in his letter to me to explain that that
 9is the one occasion he wore the uniform because otherwise
10he could not have got through the police cordons? Does
11not that kind of thing in a letter written from East
12Germany tell you anything?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It does not cast doubt on what he says, that he was never
14the chief medical officer and that his knowledge was only
15third hand.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     His knowledge is direct from Klaus Maynart, is it not, the
17City Commandant, and from the Chief of the Civil Air
18Defence who stated their estimates to him and repeatedly
19said afterwards: "We cannot believe these low figures we
20are hearing about now." They expressed their astonishment
21to him, did they not?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, many people did, but there is no documentary evidence
23there. The document we are dealing with is a forgery
24which you knew to be a forgery and yet you present it to
25the Provost of Coventry as genuine.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     When a writer is carrying out research on a subject like

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 1this and he establishes contact under difficult conditions
 2with sources as close to the facts as these sources
 3purport it or appear to be, is not perfectly proper and
 4the opposite of perverse for that writer to use the facts
 5and figures that he gives to them?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry, I did not quite follow that question. It was
 7a bit convoluted.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is getting a bit late. We will move on.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you talking about Funfack's own figures
10or the figures he gives from ----
11 MR IRVING:     Yes, precisely, the statements, the figure given to
12him, the quality of the source.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Given to him by Maynart?
14 MR IRVING:     Yes. It tallies closely with the figures given by
15Voight at that time?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is just gossip and rumour.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 544, paragraph 2 line 2, you refer to a letter to me
18from a man called Sperling. Was Sperling an official of
19the Federal German Statistical office?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that the German Government Ministry which is
22responsible for keeping all census and statistical figures
23relating to Germany?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is the West German office, yes, at that time.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did he write a letter in which he stated that immediately

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 1after the attack on Dresden the number of dead was
 2estimated by local authorities at 180,000 to 200,000?
 3Never mind about whether the figure is right or not, but
 4did he write that to me?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Is this in discovery?
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is on page -- you quote it on paragraph 544, your
 7paragraph 2.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I am not sure I have seen this letter.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, where else did you get it from?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is quoting your version of it.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     On microfilm which was in the discovery. It is over the
12page, the footnote 151.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     He wrote that letter to me before the book was published,
15April 25th 1962?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Information of that quality from that German Government
18source, would you describe it as perverse for a historian
19a writer to use that figure?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let us have a look at exactly what this says.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Who was Sperling?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He is an official of the Federal Ministry of Statistics.
23 MR IRVING:     Statistics in Germany which keeps figures like
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In West Germany in the mid-1960s. The figures that
26Mr Irving quotes in his very various works as having been

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 1given by Sperling seem to vary from one edition of the
 2book to another one: 180 to 20,000 in one, 120 to 150 in
 3another and then 120 to 150 again and then up to half a
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     He quotes both those sets of figures, does he not, in his
 6letter, is that right?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Can we have a look at the letter?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where is the letter? Can we dig it out?
 9 MR IRVING:     He quotes the letter actually in the book, in his
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     147, note 147.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, my Lord, I do not think it is.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is that wrong?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     544.
15 MR IRVING:     Page 544, paragraph 2. Unless they misquoted the
16passage from the letter, that is the actual quotation in
17quotation marks which gives both sets of figures.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, to the microfilm.
19 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I only have two more questions now and
20then I am through.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I would quite like to find Dr Sperling's
23 MR RAMPTON:     If your Lordship would like to see the document.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you have it available.
25 MR RAMPTON:     It is page 15 of whatever this thing is that
26I have here, tab 3 of L1. It is first of all in German.

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 1It is on pages 15 and 16 it is in German, and on pages 17
 2and 18 it is in English. I am afraid I cannot read either
 3of them.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     L1 tab 1?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Tab 3 of page 15. The Professor has not got it.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is this from Goring?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     No.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     L1 tab 3.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Pages 17 and 18.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is the blue numbers.
12 MR RAMPTON:     The blue numbers on the bottom right-hand corner.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Goring at the top of the page.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I still do not have this.
15 MR RAMPTON:     It is tab 2.
16 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the translation appears to be on the
17second and fourth pages.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, page 18. It almost completely is
20 MR IRVING:     I have put a bracket in the margin next to the
21paragraph I quoted and relied upon.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is more literal in the German.
23 MR IRVING:     It is exactly the same as is quoted in the expert
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, what does the last sentence in
26that paragraph say?

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