Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 201 - 205 of 237

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Page.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     225.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     That is the 1966 edition.
 4 MR IRVING:     You agree that all of these figures show I am just
 5saying that the upper him limit or the maximum was
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He is just having a look to remind himself.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you read out the bit which refers to the
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "Immediately after the war for sound political reasons,
12the Russia occupation authorities broached an announcement
13that the raids on Dresden had cost the lives of only
1435,000 people, and the first postwar Lord Mayor of Dresden
15supported them. In fact the documentation suggests very
16strongly that the figure was certainly between a minimum
17of 100,000 and a maximum 250,000. Hans Voight himself
18estimated the final number would have been 135,000, but it
19now appears that there were other officers working
20parallel to his. On the registration of the victims, for
21example, a police unit with an office just behind ... all
22the evidence is that the figure was actually very much
23higher." Then there are further estimates of 120, 150,
24180, 220, 140, 202,040 and Goebbels' figure of 250,000.
25 MR IRVING:     Do you accept that some of those figures are taken
26dust jacket or blurb material which the author does not

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 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is from the text.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is in the text. I have just read the text of this.
 4 MR IRVING:     I am just looking at the quotations page 510 of the
 5expert report.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But we are looking at the Corgi edition.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 8 MR IRVING:     I have another five or ten more minutes of
 9cross-examination, but I want to make sure that Mr Rampton
10has enough time for his re-examination.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I will have plenty of time.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not worry about that, because the
13important thing is that you have put everything you want
14to put, Mr Irving. That is the priority.
15 MR IRVING:     I do not think I will be able to put everything
16I want to put, but I am keeping it within bounds. Page
17508, please. Now you say: "Irving has intimated", this
18is paragraph
 1halfway down, "that he will contest in
19court that estimates of", well, that I will maintain in
20court that estimates of the casualties vary between 35,000
21and 250,000?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do agree that General Kurt Maynart, the City Commandant of
24Dresden, and that Professor Fetcher, the head of Civil Air
25Defence in Dresden, would have been in a position to
26estimate the final death roll accurately from their

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 1positions respectively?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not necessarily. We will have to look at it in a bit more
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, just off the top of your head, if somebody is the
 5City Commandant or if somebody is the head of Civil Air
 6Defence, do you agree that on the face of it they are
 7likely to be in a good position to know what the final
 8death figure is likely to be?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     One has to know where they were and what they were doing
10at this time.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Where they were, one was City Commandant and one was Head
12of Air Defence, Civil Air Defence?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let us accept that for the moment and let you get on to
14the next question.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, the next question ----
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Accept that they might have been in a good position to
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, at page 19 of the little bundle I have inserted
19fresh copies of the Funfack letters. They have not
20changed at all from the translations I provided before,
21but just for the ease of this particular operation.
22Professor Evans, you are familiar with the correspondence
23that I had with a medical officer or a doctor called Max
24Funfack in Dresden?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     You began quoting one letter he wrote me and then you

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 1stopped at a certain point, did you not?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Where is this?
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     On page 520.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     You quoted the letter he wrote to me dated January 19th,
 6which ends: "Therefore, I can give no firm information
 7about the figure of the dead but only repeat what was
 8reported to me"?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then rather oddly you tell us what it was?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That comes several pages later. One has to ----
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is an odd place to break though, was it not?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It comes on page 533 where I quote that last sentence and
14then go on, because that was necessary.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     The City Commandant, General Maynart, spoke on about 22nd
16February 1945 of 140,000 dead.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is the City Commandant?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     How does 140,000 tally with the 135,000 figure that
21I wrote in my book? Is it more or less or about the same?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You know that. You do not have to ask me.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are an expert and I thought I would ask you for an
24expert opinion?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You do not need to be an expert to see
26whether one figure is the same as another.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor Fetcher of the Civil Air Defence spoke of
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     But of course he then continues to say: "I have never
 5seen written evidence for this"?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right. He advises you to get in touch with him.
 7You could not with Fetcher of course but with Maynart.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     As you know, of course, I had met a man called Hans Voight
 9who had represented to me, and no doubt accurately, that
10he was the head of the missing persons bureau in Dresden,
11and that he had undertaken identification work on the
12bodies for weeks afterwards?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that he thought the good figure, in his estimate,
15would finally reach, the death figure would finally reach
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, that is somewhat disingenuous, the way you put it.
18He says that he had been able to clear up the identity of
1940,000 of the deed.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     But did he estimate the final figure what it was likely to
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, he told you that he estimated it as 135,000, but
23I do not think he is a particularly reliable witness here.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you like Walter Weidauer, do you not, who is the Mayor
25of Dresden, this Communist Mayor who tore the heart out of
26Dresden and tore the palaces down and all the churches

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