Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 191 - 195 of 237

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    As an expert witness before this court, you have, no
 1any of the official histories every provide any sourced
 2references up until the most recent official histories of
 3the intelligence service, and so on, which has changed the
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, well, I mean, that is as may be. The point I am
 6trying to make is that since 1961, whatever they had
 7available to them, and there have been numerous
 8investigations which a responsible historian would make
 9use of in arriving at an estimation of the numbers of dead
10in the Hamburg bombing raid in 1943, investigations
11carried out in Hamburg itself on the local Hamburg
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do we need to spend very long on Hamburg
14because we are really in this case, I think, concerned
15with Dresden.
16 MR IRVING:     It is difficult; each time when I think I have
17established a point to the court's satisfaction, we are
18dragged back down into the morass again, into the swamps.
19Strafing, page 500, I am at a loss here because there is
20no TV set, television, in the courtroom today and I was
21going to provide the court with ----
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You can do it at a later stage.
23 MR IRVING:     At a later stage. It is a five minute segment ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Am I wrong in thinking -- I am trying to
25remember -- have you cross-examined about Dresden
26before ----

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 1 MR IRVING:     I have been cross-examined about Dresden.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     I cross-examined Mr Irving about the bombing
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I had an idea he cross-examined one of
 5your witnesses about Dresden, but no?
 6 MR RAMPTON:     I do not think so, no.
 7 MR IRVING:     No. I have been cross-examined, but I have done no
 9 MR RAMPTON:     On the bombing ----
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, Mr Irving, I am wrong.
11 MR RAMPTON:     It seemed the strafing to me was relatively
13 MR IRVING:     On the question of strafing, and you have quoted a
14book by Mr Gurtz Bergander quite frequently, have you not?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware that Gurtz Bergander is (or was at all
17material times) a reporter for the German Government radio
18station? Did Bergander interview any of the aircrew
19members? If you do not know just say so. On page 500
20roughly. If you do not know just say you do not know.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I cannot remember, to be honest.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you read any of my notes on the interviews with the
23British and American aircrew members?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There is an awful lot of them, Mr Irving. I have
25concentrated on what you published.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     But if you are trying to impugn the question whether the

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 1British or the Americans opened fire with their machine
 2guns during the raids, then this would be the kind of
 3place to look for the source, would it not?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, yes.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The British opened fire with machine guns,
 6did they?
 7 MR IRVING:     At night, yes, my Lord. It was just typical of the
 8useless exuberance. They would just poop off.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The relevance of that is what?
10 MR IRVING:     Strafing, the allegation of ground strafing. It is
11levelled more directly against the Americans during the
12day-time raids.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what I thought.
14 MR IRVING:     Yes. Page 503.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, I thought you said they did this during the day.
16 MR IRVING:     Yes. Page 500?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not at night.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 503.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Paragraph 2: The witness here was a judge called Dr Wolf
21Rektenwault, that is correct?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is nothing about strafing by British
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is Americans.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is the Americans.
26 MR IRVING:     It is left open as to whether it is the British or

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 1the Americans.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not left open. It is just not
 3mentioned. It is the Americans.
 4 MR IRVING:     I would not have included that if I had thought it
 5was just limited to the Americans, my Lord. But what
 6I intend to do ----
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It says American fighters.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am mystified why we were strafing at all.
 9 MR IRVING:     Because I am accused of inventing it or having
10adduced it without adequate evidence or the usual kind of
11story, and what I have here is an American television film
12on the Dresden raid in which that interviewed some of the
13people involved.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The point is that you have interviewed
15American airmen who have said they did not strafe?
16 MR IRVING:     I interviewed or corresponded with large numbers of
17the American airmen and I read their Unit histories. It
18is not a major point.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Ah, yes, these are the members of the 20th Fighter Group.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     And other units.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Who, in fact, were strafing i Prague, not in Dresden,
22though you say it is Dresden.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, as there is no television here, unfortunately
24I cannot show the film. So I am going to move on. Page
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How would that help to say whether it was

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 1Dresden or Prague?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Because it is a misrepresentation by Mr Irving.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. How would a television film, Mr Irving,
 4help show whether wa Prague or Dresden?
 5 MR IRVING:     Survivors from the Dresden air raid describing to
 6American television cameras how these American planes came
 7up and down the meadows of the river, machine gunning the
 8people on the banks.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I see. That has nothing to do with your
10interviews of airmen.
11 MR IRVING:     I also have interviews with airmen, but it is not a
12point to which I attach much weight as, for example, the
13death roll in Dresden which I think the court is probably
14more interested in.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought that was the real issue.
16 MR IRVING:     Yes. In that case we will go straight to page 508
17which takes us to the death roll in Dresden. Now the
18allegation, if I may summarize it to the witness, is as
19follows. I have given death figures ranging between
2035,000 as the low limit and 250,000 as the high limit and
21a probable figure of 135,000. Is that correct?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Roughly speaking, yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes,. And you think that this was a perverse thing to
24do, on the basis of the evidence before me at the time the
25I wrote on each occasion?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     

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