Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 181 - 185 of 237

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. That is note 27 on page 143 of "Nuremberg, the last
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which is one extract from the Gilbert book which is the
 4Julius Schreiber papers. Does that mean to say that
 5I have read the entire book?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     One would presume so, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware that I had in fact Gilbert's original papers
 8when I wrote the Nuremberg book?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. So, in other words, you assume something there which
11turns out not necessarily to be true?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, since you cite the book in your work, I assume you
13have read it.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, two lines from the bottom of that page you say,
15"Ribbentrop writing under duress in allied
16captivity" ----
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, you say that.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- do you accept that he was writing under duress?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, you say that. You say: "Special
20circumstances ... (reading to the words) ... Ribbentrop
21writing under duress in allied captivity" ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     But if you turn the page ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- "and facing an inevitable death sentence has to be
24borne in mind". Well, he was in captivity, of course, and
25he was facing a death sentence.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the physical conditions that the

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 1prisoners lived in at Nuremberg?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     No table, no medication, no hygiene, no light, no
 4spectacles and all the rest of it?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I am not sure I accept all of that.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 486: Hitler's last will and testament, or his
 7political testament. This is the one he dictated on the
 8last day of his life, is that right?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     486 -- 5 to 6.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     5 to 6?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We may have slightly different pagination here.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am looking just at the first two lines. My Lord, do you
13have that?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The last five lines of page 485 and first two of ----
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Last five lines on page 485?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, the indented quotation, my Lord.
17 MR IRVING:     I said page 486, the last...
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, the first two of page 486.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     What do you think Hitler meant by the Jews "having to
20atone for his guilt", "the Jew having to atone for his
21guilt even if by more humane means than being burned alive
22in air raids", and so on. What do you think he meant
23by ----
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, let us read the quotation. "I also made it quite
25plain that if the nations of Europe are going to be
26regarded as mere shares to be bought and sold by those

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 1international conspirators in money and finance, then
 2Jewry, the race which is" -- sorry, "then, Jewry, the race
 3which is the real criminal in this murderous struggle will
 4be saddled with the responsibility. I further", says
 5Hitler, "left no one in doubt that this time millions of
 6Europe's Aryan peoples would not die of hunger, millions
 7of grown men would not suffer death, nor would hundreds
 8and thousands of women and children be allowed to be
 9burned and bombed to death in the towns without the real
10criminal having to atone for his guilt", that is the Jew,
11of course, "even if by more humane means". I assume there
12he is saying it is not, I mean, it is not bombing and
13burning to death in the towns or dying of hunger. It is
14shooting and gassing.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you think that he is referring there to the Holocaust,
16the Auschwitz, the gas chambers, the cyanide, the choking
17to death, all the horrible things that have been
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Now, I am not saying I agree that it was humane; I am just
20saying he thought it was humane, or appears to say so
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Could it not equally ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He was always, after all, and we have had several
24quotations today, congratulating himself on how humane he
25was towards the Jews.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it not make for greater sense than this rather

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 1plausible suggestion that the Holocaust was humane which
 2is what you are proposing?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not proposing it. It is Hitler who is proposing it.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which is what you are proposing is the meaning on this
 5word, to be assigned to this word, that what Hitler is
 6saying that, "We have had hundreds thousands, if not
 7millions, of people burned alive, women and children, in
 8our cities and we have just deported the Jews, booted them
 9out to Siberia", or wherever he thought they had gone, and
10that is what he is referring to when he talks about them
11having had to atone for their guilt by more humane means,
12because the only other alternative is that you are
13accepting that the Holocaust was more humane?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, that is not at all. That is another classic example
15of the way you twist everything to your own polemical
16purposes. I am not saying the Holocaust was more humane.
17I am not making a judgment at all.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or being machine gunned into pits?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am simply quoting Hitler, and Hitler is saying that the
20Jews will have to atone for what he regards as their crime
21of having killed millions of Aryans through hunger,
22burning alive and so on, they will have to atone for it by
23more humane means which, I assume, he means, not explicit
24about it at all, he means gassing, possibly shooting.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, the reason for that is, of course, you say there is
26a connection between that and the memorandum submitted in

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 1July 1941 by Ralf Heinz Hupner who says, "Would it not be
 2more humane to find some rapidly working means of
 3disposing of the Jews rather than have them exposed to the
 4privations of the winter?"
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Where do I say that?
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is on page 486 -- I am sorry, 489.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     9?
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you suggesting that the Hupner message was ever shown
11to or read by Hitler? Was it not addressed to Adolf
12Eichmann? Are you suggesting there is a direct causal
13link between the Hupner message and the Hitler ----
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I am not.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     So just a bit of a smoke screen by you then?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it is not a smoke screen. I am drawing attention to
17the parallel there as ----
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or do you think ----
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- as evidence of a wider mind set.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or do you think that the reference to humanity or humane
21is, in fact, an allusion to the blockade that we, Allies,
22imposed on Germany in World War I and after World War I
23which resulted in the deaths of large numbers of Germans?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I see no evidence of that in this statement by Hitler.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     490, in paragraph 11, you cast doubt on the secretly
26recorded conversation between Ribbentrop and a British

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