Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 161 - 165 of 237

<< 1-5236-237 >>
    It was all in the background of his mind. He is
 1know about the air raids. He has just taken a train right
 2across Germany and seen the devastation of the cities.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is why he talks about killing the
 4Hungarian Jews?
 5 MR IRVING:     I think that comes under the category of increasing
 6the climate of barbarism. It increases the atmosphere.
 7Things that would have been unthinkable in 1939 become
 8more thinkable and that is when you start talking
 9tougher. They are talking tough. They are saying, if you
10do not want to lock them up, what alternative do you
11have? You are either going to have to lock them up or you
12are going to have to kill them, which means effectively
13you can only lock them up.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is there any more on Horthy because I thought
15we had dealt with Horthy this morning.
16 MR IRVING:     No, we moved on from Horthy a long time ago.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I did not take that as a question, my Lord, that I dispute
18virtually everything Mr Irving has said.
19 MR IRVING:     453, Professor. You take it ill that I have left
20out entirely the Hitler Antonescu conference?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, you do not leave it out entirely, Mr Irving.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     The second half of it?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, exactly.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Should I have mentioned every single diplomatic
25conference in which Hitler engaged during World War II?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Obviously not.

.        P-161

 1 MR IRVING:     Obviously not. That is exactly my answer.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But you do mention it.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     You accuse me of having left out the half that matters,
 4the second half.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Because it was in two halves, this conference, was it not?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right. Another two day meeting, 12th April, 13th
 8April 1943, just before Hitler met Horthy.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does this particular conference that you set out on page
10453 add one iota to our knowledge of the whole problem?
11Is not our aim always to try and simplify the issues
12rather than just keep on repeating and repeating?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You discuss the 12th April meeting but you omit the 13th
14April because here again is Hitler giving voice to extreme
15anti-semitic sentiments.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, big deal.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I know you think it is not a big deal, Mr Irving. The
18Fuhrer took the view that one must proceed against the
19Jews, the more radically the better. The Fuhrer said he
20would rather burn all his bridges behind him because the
21Jewish hatred is so enormously great anyway.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it add anything to our knowledge?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I think it does.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which word adds something to our knowledge?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think Hitler's anti-semitic statements here are another
26example of his extreme anti-Semitism at this time, which

.        P-162

 1was not a chance or temporary product, exceptional
 2product, of anger against bombing raids which he dismissed
 3as being trivial or against the Kateen massacre which you
 4do not mention in these contexts. These are just another
 5example of Hitler's extreme anti-semitism.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If Mr Irving is right about the
 7Schlegelberger memorandum, he is talking about a problem
 8that he had already decided should be postponed until the
 9end of the war.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. It does not look very much like that here, does it,
11my Lord, since he is exerting enormous pressure on these
12foreign governments to deliver up their Jews for
14 MR IRVING:     Or to lock them away? This is what the Horthy
15conference is about, is it not?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not about locking them away, Mr Irving. We have
17been through this many times.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have had that argument. Let us press on,
19Mr Irving.
20 MR IRVING:     Yes. But you said to deliver them up for
21extermination, you have no evidence for the second half of
22that phrase, do you?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is what happened, Mr Irving.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     So in other words, you are extrapolating backwards from
25what allegedly happen to the intention of this conference?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     From what happened, and it seems a reasonable connection

.        P-163

 1to make.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, the next point is the deportation of the Jews
 3from Rome, and here again I am not sure whether I have to
 4attend to this or not. I am prepared to attend to this or
 5not. I am prepared to attend to it but I am not sure if
 6Mr Rampton ----
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     On Thursday I think you said that you were
 8wanting to because it was a completely false criticism.
 9 MR IRVING:     Obviously there are bits that I want to take out of
10it but if I can just look at page 457, line 4, the
11allegation or the comment is made that I omitted a
12sentence from the 1991 edition of Hitler's War.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     The SS liquidated them anyway, regardless of Hitler's
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now, is the quality of information on the liquidation as
18good as it is for the deportation as far as Hitler is
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are going to have to just slightly set
21the scene for me, Mr Irving. If we dart from one topic to
22another, I have not spent 30 or 40 years on this, so can
23you help me a little bit?
24 MR IRVING:     I will do it in two lines rather than allow the
25witness to do it in 25.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That was what I was inviting you to do.

.        P-164

 1 MR RAMPTON:     I do believe that Mr Irving should stop being so
 2offensive. It does not improve the climate in court and
 3this is a distinguished scholar. He may not be an expert
 4on the Holocaust, and I really do think Mr Irving ought to
 5mind his tongue, if I may respectfully say so.
 6 MR IRVING:     I will do it in two lines then.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is a point to be heeded. I know
 8tempers run high and they inevitably do, but I think, if
 9one can try and keep it civil on all sides, that does
11 MR IRVING:     My Lord, with respect, for seven days and in 750
12pages of this report, I have had to listen to the most
13defamatory utterances poured over my head by witnesses who
14speak in the knowledge that their remarks are privileged.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is why I said I understand that tempers
16run high, but lack of civility is not the way to deal with
17an attack of the kind that is mounted on you i Professor
18Evans' report. That is all I was saying.
19 MR IRVING:     I would hate to think that I had been uncivil on
20any occasion in the previous seven days, my Lord.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us move on.
22 MR IRVING:     Undeservedly uncivil, anyway.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You were going to tell me in two lines.
24 MR IRVING:     In two lines as opposed to -- well, in two lines.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     A few lines. Do your best. I know you are
26darting from one topic to another as well.

.        P-165

<< 1-5236-237 >>