Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 16 - 20 of 237

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    No, not really. Can I say I rely on the Adjutants
 1Irving does not like.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Particularly in Kristallnacht.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Exactly, and on Auschwitz.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. So, in other words, you are not really
 5going to put your case in any greater detail than already
 6has been done?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     No.
 8 MR IRVING:     In that case, I do not propose to waste much time
 9on him. It is very interesting what the Professor has
10written, but we do want to press ahead. (To the witness):
11Professor Evans, will you go to page 397 of your report,
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     You touch there briefly on the gassings at Belzec,
15Treblinka and Sobibor, and you say that these events are
16not disputed by serious historians.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not see that.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     397?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     399. I say that in 399, yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes on 399?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry, paragraph 8.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is a very brief summary of what I take to be the
24existing state of knowledge as a background to what I say
25in this section of my report.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I am not going to question you in any great detail

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 1on those camps because, of course, for the purposes of
 2this trial, we are accepting that gassings did occur in
 3those camps. But again just going to the quality of your
 4knowledge, are you saying that there is a broad consensus
 5on these camps? This is another example of the broad
 6consensus that you use sometimes as your guiding star?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is really for the orientation for the court. It is not
 8just on the camps. I describe in the paragraphs as
 9rapidly and economically as I can ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you form an opinion about what ----
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- Nazi policy in occupied Poland in a general sense.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you form an opinion about what kind of gas was used in
13those camps in your reading on the matter?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is not -- yes, on the top I do mention this in
15relation to Belzec on line 3 of page 398, carbon monoxide.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware that there has been dispute over that
17particular detail, whether it was carbon oxide or whether
18it was diesel engines or petrol engines or even steam
19being used?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have not heard steam, I have to say, but in any case it
21does not really make a great deal of difference as to
22whether the gas was poisonous or not. The point is, of
23course, that if it was not poisonous, then asphyxiation
24was the cause of death.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Has the position of the mass graves been fixed? There
26must be enormous mass graves of these, what, 1 million

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 1people were killed in these three camps.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is really just painting in the background. If you
 3want to present me with documentation on this, Mr Irving,
 4I will be happy to comment on it.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am just asking the state of your knowledge. Are you
 6aware if there has been any kind of archeological
 7investigation of the sites because there are no remains on
 8any of those sites, are there?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You would have to present me with documentation to show
10that there were no remains before I agreed with you.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am a bit puzzled by this in a
12way because you have accepted that I think hundreds of
13thousands of Jews were gassed in those three camps, so, in
14a sense, there is not much to be gained by asking about
15archeological investigation.
16 MR IRVING:     I was using that as an example really of exposing
17to your Lordship the rather shallow nature of the
18investigation made by this expert witness on matters of
19some moment, that I asked three or four questions, to each
20of which I got replies I can only describe as evasive.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but if there is no issue about it,
22really it is beside the point.
23 MR IRVING:     It is not about the fact, but about the scale, my
24Lord, really, and that is how I would leave it.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I think hundreds of thousands you have

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 1 MR IRVING:     Yes, of that order of magnitude.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The problem is, Mr Irving, I am not prepared to accept
 3statements of your about archeological remains and so on
 4unless you can present me with documentation.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     The question I asked you was were you aware of any
 6archeological investigations.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well....
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     And I was asking purely about the state of your
 9enquiries. We will now proceed, my Lord. We will make
10very rapid progress today. We are going to go to the
11Goebbels diary entry of March 27th 1942 which begins on
12that same page, 399, of your report, Professor Evans.
13I am going to ask you to look at page 400 of your report,
14Professor Evans, line 3. This is the part that matters.
15I am going to read out the translation that you have
16offered to the court of these three or four lines: "The
17Jews are now being pushed out of the General Government".
18What is happening here? Has Dr Goebbels received ----
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The top line, yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Has Dr Goebbels received a report from the SD or from some
21Nazi authority which he is summarising here, is this what
22has happened?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not saying -- he certainly has been informed about
24these events and he is putting down a summary of them.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     A summary of them. Is there any indication known to you
26that that particular report went to Adolph Hitler? I have

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 1to ask that because that is an element of this trial.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Then you would have to provide me with a copy of the
 3report and we would have to look at it in detail.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     If there had been an indication that it had gone to Adolf
 5Hitler in the diary, then you would have referred to it,
 6would you not?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, indeed, yes. I mean, if, or, rather, if Goebbels
 8thought it worth mentioning that a report had been the
 9basis of what he is saying here and that it had gone to
10Hitler and he had mentioned it, then I would have
11mentioned that too, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     You rely on this diary entry quite heavily as evidence
13that Goebbels was what, 100 per cent aware of the killings
14in the East, the killing of the Jews being pushed out of
15the General Government, that Goebbels was aware that this
16was going on?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     "The Jews are now being pushed out of the General
19Government, beginning near Lublin, to the East", he
20writes. "A pretty barbaric procedure is being applied
21here, and it is not to be described in any more detail,
22and not much is left to the Jews themselves". I have no
23quarrel with that translation.
24     You then continue: "In general one may conclude
25that 60 per cent of them must be liquidated, while only 40
26per cent can be put to work". This is the sentence on

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