Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition
Pages 151 - 155 of 237
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1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] We had better look up exactly what he said.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Is that not the sense of what he is saying?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not accept your version of it. I think we need to be
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Is the whole burden of what Hitler and Ribbentrop have
6been saying to Horthy, you have a security problem, we are
7worried that you are going to break out of the alliance?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Back to Horthy, no.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] The Jews are the biggest problem?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I do not think they said anything about a security
11problem unless you can point me to it.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] I am going to produce those documents to the court when we
13go back to the transcript. But is it not true?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The Reichs Foreign Minister replied that the Jews must
15either be annihilated or taken to concentration camps.
16There was no other way.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] That is right.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you give the reference for that?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Page 441, my Lord, of my report.
20 MR IRVING: Is Ribbentrop in effect saying you have to lock
21them up as we demand because the only other thing you
22could do is with them is to kill them?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, he is not.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] What is the difference?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] He is not saying, lock them up or we will kill them. He
26is saying they must either be annihilated or taken to
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Tell me the difference between those two statements.
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The first one, lock them up or we will kill them, says it
4is putting primacy, the emphasis on locking them up. The
5second one gives them two equal statuses and does not say
6anything about what is happen to them in the concentration
7camps. The words "lock them up" does not occur there.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it not possible, lock them away, put them in
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, it does not occur, not in what he says.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Is this not a perfectly feasible and reasonable
12explanation of the force that was applied to Horthy on
13that day, saying in blunt terms: You are going to have
14lock them away because, look, the only other thing you
15could do is kill them?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not at all. We are back on Horthy, all right. It is not
17at all what he says. Let us go through this all over
18again. Pages 441 to 442 of my report.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just a second.
20 MR IRVING: I do not think we need to go through it all again.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Horthy says, "what should he with the Jews after he had
22pretty well taken all means of living from them - he
23surely couldn't beat them to death - The Reich Foreign
24Minister replied that the Jews must either be annihilated
25or taken to concentration camps. There was no other way."
26 Hitler then says yes, "Where the Jews are left
1to themselves, as for example i Poland, gruesome poverty
2and degeneracy had ruled. They were just pure parasites.
3One had fundamentally cleared up this state of affairs in
4Poland. If the Jews there did not want to work, they were
5shot. If they could not work, they had to perish. They
6had to be treated like tuberculosis bacilli, from which a
7healthy body could be infected. That was not cruel",
8Hitler goes on, "if one remembered that even innocent
9natural creatures like hares and deer had to be killed so
10that no harm was caused. Why should one spare the beasts
11who wanted to bring us Bolshevism any more? Nations who
12did not rid themselves of Jews perished".
13 That seems to be extremely open about what is to
14happen to the Jews whom Hitler and Ribbentrop want Horthy
15to deliver from Hungary over to their tender mercies.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] I must protest against this wasting of the time of the
17court reading out time after time after time paragraphs
18that we have already heard.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, that is simply not fair, is it?
20We were on Ribbentrop's knowledge and you suggested that
21the first he knew was ----
22 MR IRVING: A perfectly reasonable explanation.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: -- in 1944 when Maidonek surfaced, to which
24the witness, as I recall, replied no, it was obvious to
25Ribbentrop what was going on back in 1942 and he cited
26Horthy. That was why it all arose.
1 MR IRVING: I agree, and I put to him, not realising we were
2letting ourselves in for another torrent of quotations
3from his own report, page after page after page.
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is a quotation from Hitler, Mr Irving. I know you do
5not want to hear Hitler saying the Jews have to be
6killed. That is why you want to shut me up, is it not?
7 MR IRVING: A perfectly reasonable interpretation on the words
8that were used by Hitler and Ribbentrop to Horthy, which
9is to say, we are demanding you lock up all your Jews
10because of the security threat, which I shall establish to
11the court with the documents, and the only other thing you
12could do is kill them. In other words, you have no choice
13but to lock them up.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think that is a perverted and distorted interpretation
15which you are putting on this document in a completely
16illegitimate way in order to try and bolster up your
17totally untenable view that Hitler did not want the Jews
18killed and did not know about it.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us move on.
20 MR IRVING: Professor Evans, we are thoroughly familiar with
21the fact that you do not like me but there is no need to
22keep on expressing it again and again and again.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have no personal feelings towards you one way or the
24other, Mr Irving.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we all perhaps calm it a little bit and
26move on to the next topic. We have dealt with the
1Adjutants. What are you wanting to ask about now?
2 MR IRVING: We are dealing just with two tail end questions on
3the Horthy business. At page 441, footnote 7, you say
4that Paul Schmidt self serving memoirs are unreliable.
5Are memoirs sometimes unreliable when you so choose?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I am not using them. It is just a little note.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The answer to that question must be yes.
8What is the next question?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
10 MR IRVING: Thank you very much, my Lord.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is not an important note.
12 MR IRVING: Is a historian who researches, unlike yourself,
13both in the German but also in the Hungarian state files,
14and who finds in Hungarian state files no explicit
15reference to any discussion of killing at this Hitler
16Horthy meeting entitled therefore to assume that this did
17not bulk very large on that horizon?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] At page 451 you talk in paragraph 14 about the effect of
20the bombing raids, in view of the fact that he had
21dismissed them as unimportant, it is highly unlikely that
22these bombing raids roused Hitler to an unprecedented
23anti-Semitic fury. Are you an expert on the bombing war
24as well then?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Mr Irving, I have already said that I have a general level
26of expertise on the Third Reich and the Second World War,
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