Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 146 - 150 of 237

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    -- and, when asked for some note or tape recording, said,
 1Mr Irving?
 2 MR IRVING:     That is, coupled with the fact that the book was
 3published posthumously, the Christa Schroeder book, and
 4the fact these statements by Gita Sereny have surfaced
 5more recently still. Can I ask this question? Is it
 6known to you that Gita Sereny had to withdraw statements
 7that she made in her famous attack on my book in a letter
 8pushed in the Sunday Times?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We could have a look at that. I think it is in discovery
10and we can see which ones. I do not think she withdrew
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it a fact ----
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Of course I go back to the fact that the book was
14published very shortly, the edition of the memoirs was
15published very shortly after Christa Schroeder's death,
16and that the editor clearly had the collaboration of Frau
17Schroeder in preparing the edition, as he says in the
18preface. I do not accept your view, because I think it is
19your view, that Gita Sereny made all this up.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I get back to my question, which is this? Given that
21Gita Sereny in an article in the Sunday Times also claimed
22to have interviewed Dr. Frohlich, and quoted Dr Frohlich
23in quotation remarks and saying various very disreputable
24things about me, and that two weeks later Gita Sereny had
25to publish a letter in the Sunday Times admitting that
26this was totally untrue, is she a reliable source, in your

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 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could we have a look at the letter, please?
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     It has been in discovery throughout.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is a problem, Mr Irving. I am
 5reluctant to press you to chase up every document for
 6which Professor Evans asks, and frankly I think we can
 7forget about the Frohlich one. But, if you are saying
 8that there are documents emanating from Christa Schroeder
 9protesting about Gita Sereny, then I think those, at some
10stage I would like to see them.
11 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I have a note of both Christa Schroeder's
12name and Sereny's name.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know it is difficult for you on the hoof
14but can you bear that in mind.
15 MR IRVING:     It is important. I have one more question on this
16particular matter. Christa Schroeder, through the Albert
17Soller book, apparently makes a statement incriminating
18Adolf Hitler in the Final Solution, upon which reliance
19has been placed by people like Gita Sereny.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, is that a question?
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not quite sure what I am meant to ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you agree this is so?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would have to see the documentation for that.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, in that case, let us move on to another name?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Obviously, you are suggesting that it derived from the

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 1bits of the book which were not written by Sereny but were
 2based on the interrogations of Heinrich Hofmann, the
 3photographer and Schaub, the side kick of Hitler.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then I will ask this further question. Have you seen, as
 5you say you have seen, all my memoranda on my interviews
 6with Christa Schroeder, which are in the Institute's
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you agree that I keep very clean records of all my
10interviews with these people, the times, the dates,
11exactly what they said, by numbered paragraphs and so on?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you not seen in one of these memoranda that Christa
14Schroeder specifically disavows that remark by Albert
15Soller and says that she never said it?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would want to see that but I can quite accept that she
17might have said that, had it been derived from the other
18material used in the Soller book, certainly, yes. I make
19that quite clear, that the Soller book is a kind of hybrid
20of interrogations of Hofmann, Schaub and the Schroeder
21stuff, which is the majority of it.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you have another name?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, the famous incident recounted on pages 653 to 4, by
24Sonnleithner and also by Lorenz.
25 MR IRVING:     Sonnleithner replaced Walter Habel, did he not, for
26a time as the liaison officer of the foreign minister to

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 1Adolf Hitler's staff?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, Foreign Ministry official, that is right. This is
 3quite a celebrated incident, so that is the last one, my
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much for doing that.
 6 MR IRVING:     Since we are on that Maidonek episode that
 7Sonnleithner relates here, is it not true that Ribbentrop,
 8when he also heard the reports about Maidonek, expressed
 9disbelief in September 1944?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. He is quoted in fact on the next page, 655, as
11saying I did not know anything about the exterminations
12until the Maidonek affair came out in 44.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and that he discussed it one morning with his son
14Roland, did he not?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     As Roland told me, he said his father had asked him and
17shown him a copy of the Daily Mail reporting the Maidonek
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I am trying to find where I deal with this. I think
20it is earlier on.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does this not rather indicate that Ribbentrop was somewhat
22in the dark until then?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is dealt with.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Either he did not know or he did not want to know what was
25going on?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     On pages 478 to 496 of my report.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is Ribbentrop on Hitler's knowledge, is
 2that right, Professor?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, my Lord.
 4 MR IRVING:     It is not really about this episode, is it?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not quite sure what are you trying to ask.
 6 MR IRVING:     I am asking whether you have not heard that
 7Ribbentrop always maintained that the first he learned
 8about the atrocities was when the reports came through the
 9foreign press of Maidonek, the capture by the Russians of
10the Maidonek camp.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In 1944 he says -- on page 491 -- that is what he
12claimed, yes. Whether he is to be believed or not is
13quite a different matter.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen any evidence?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, the conversation with Horthy that we were discussing
16this morning.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     We were discussing this morning, where Ribbentrop says,
18"if you are not prepared to lock them up in concentration
19camps the way we are demanding, then your only alternative
20is going to be to shoot them". Right?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, he did not quite say that.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is what it boils down to, is it not?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it is not.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Ribbentrop is saying, either you do what we say or the
25only other thing you could do is liquidate them, meaning
26there is no choice.

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