Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 141 - 145 of 237

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    Yes. As stated in your report, your expert report,
 1this relies entirely on one published source by Gita
 2Szereni. Is that correct?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     This passage on page 652.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Where there are lengthy previous quotations?
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Quotations from Christa Schroeder.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you or your researchers make any attempt to obtain
 9from Gita Szereni, who lives in London, any original notes
10or tape recordings, or other memoranda drawn up
11contemporaneously on her interview with Christa Schroeder?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not see why we should have done so. She says
13clearly that this is in her article. This is what Christa
14Schroeder told her and we have no reason to disbelieve
15her.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware that Christa Schroeder expressed herself to
17me in terms of the utmost contempt for this particular
18author and what she was trying to get her to say?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I am not. You will have to show me evidence of that
20if I am to believe you.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you had complete access to all my private diaries,
22papers and telephone logs?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen no reference to any conversations or letters
25from Christa Schroeder in that vein?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If there are any, I would like to see them.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. It would be very interesting to see them. I mean,
 2obviously, there is far too much there for us to read all
 3the way through. As I have said many days ago, we were
 4particularly looking at the diaries and telephone logs and
 5so on, with a view, with certain particular questions in
 6mind, and we were not looking to them in order to verify
 7what seems to be a perfectly straightforward statement by
 8Miss Szereni in her article, that this is what Christa
 9Schroeder said to her in her statement and which we had no
10reason to disbelieve, and I still have no reason to
11disbelieve.
12 MR IRVING:     Are you aware of a book called "Hitler Privat"
13written by a Frenchman called Albert Zoller which,
14apparently, is conversations with Hitler's private
15secretary, Christa Schroeder?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is discussed at length in my report.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you draw us to the page, please?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Pages 647 to 651.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen Christa Schroeder's original copy of that
20book with the crossings out and heavy lines in the margin
21and exclamation marks where she has dismissed most
22robustly the statements she is alleged to have made?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is much too sweeping, Mr Irving.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, the answer is no, is it?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I am trying to give you an answer, if you will let me.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, wait for it.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     So many of your questions do require a lengthy answer. It
 2is on page 649 that I describe the critical addition in
 31985, where Frau Schroeder tells the Editor, Anton
 4Joachimstahler, the exact nature of the book produced by
 5Zoller, which leads to conclusions about 160-70 pages
 6originated by Frau Schroeder, although some of those are
 7distorted or amended more, in a greater or lesser vein, by
 8Zoller.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you, in that circumstance, attach any value whatever
10to the Zoller book?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, of course, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you show straightaway what was said by her and what
13has been said by Schroeder?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is a complex -- well, because we know in her copy the
15pages she has crossed out were not by her, so at least we
16have got rid of those extra 70 odd pages which do not
17originate from Frau Schroeder. Frau Schroeder was asked
18with reference to or in the course of the preparation of
19the 1985 edition about these amendments in the pages she
20did write, and she said that she did not doubt the truth
21of the statements in the least, only that they were
22polemically distorted in some details and not represented
23quite exactly. That is rather a convoluted way of saying
24that they are basically her words, but slightly altered in
25some cases or given a slight spin.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was this book published after her death?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, seems to have been. As you know, books are prepared
 2a long time in advance of their publication. She died in
 31984 and the book was published in 1985. You have argued
 4with reference to some of your books that you wrote them
 5four or five or six years before they were published.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     If Christa Schroeder had any reason whatsoever to be
 7disgruntled with what I wrote or to dispute what I wrote
 8in my various biographies, why would she have continued an
 9amicable correspondence with me until the very last weeks
10of her life?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me try to find it.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which has been in discovery throughout this action. Every
13single letter she wrote me has been in discovery.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes. We have looked at some of them.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 647.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. There she says, that she regretted this and once
17rashly put a part of my, I guess, letters at David
18Irving's disposal. "I passed on (parroted) the judgments
19expressed therein from Hitler's conversations, for
20instance about the Russian mentality. Today I am
21horrified about these views thoughtlessly taken from
22Hitler".
23 MR IRVING:     It is true that she wrote these letters to a woman
24friend. She had a woman friend living in Switzerland, and
25that she had written some pretty harsh judgments on other
26peoples in those letters, and that is what she regretted

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 1I had access to.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In the later years of her life. In other words, she seems
 3to have changed her mind somewhat about many issues.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     As people frequently do when they give their most intimate
 5papers to a writer and it is then used in a book.
 6Sometimes they have second thoughts.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is I think probably the explanation of why
 8towards the end of her life she said to Gita Sereny, of
 9course Hitler knew, not only knew, it was all his ideas,
10his orders, whereas she did not say that to you many years
11earlier.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you any indication of the relationship that existed
13between Gita Sereny and Christa Schroeder, whether they
14were on an amicable basis or whether in fact there was the
15utmost hostility between them from the start to the
16finish?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not, no. I do not see how that affects this at all.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It affects it in this way, and I am not quite
20clear what Mr Irving's case is on this. If the contention
21is that Gita Sereny invented effectively everything that
22Christa Schroeder said ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It appears to be that.
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     -- and, when asked for some note or tape recording, said,
25oh well, there is not any record at all of my interview,
26then I think that should be put. Is that your case,

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