Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 136 - 140 of 237

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- he suspects. Yes, but he is giving his opinion.
 2 MR IRVING:     He is guessing. But we do not have to guess, my
 3Lord, because we have the agenda.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He is giving his opinion, "I am convinced".
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Do you have another name? I mean, unless his
 6Lordship has further questions to ask ----
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I have plenty more.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, well, we want to move through the names with speed
 9because we are not ----
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am moving them as fast as I can.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am happy just to have the names, but if you
12want to ask questions, Mr Irving, that is entirely
13appropriate and please do so.
14 MR IRVING:     I am asking, for example, on Engel where there is
15an important point, I slowed the matter down, but on the
16other names I an not really going to halt the flow.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it is up to you decide. I mean, if you
18say, "Oh, well, do not be ridiculous, he is not even
19hinting that Hitler knew", then I think you ought to put a
20question to that effect.
21 MR IRVING:     I have heard nothing that shakes me yet, my Lord,
22because frankly I am very familiar with all these papers.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, well, I am not nearly as familiar as you
24so it helps me to know which Adjutant Professor Evans is
25going to point to.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right, the next one.

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 1 MR IRVING:     Then I will ask a few general questions at the end.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     All right.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Then a statement by Heinz Linge.
 4 MR IRVING:     On which page?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     639 to 40.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     640?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, and again 642 to 3. Then 645, let us have a look at
 8this. Brottigan, 645 to 6.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we know exactly what is in your statement ----
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is all in my report.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just go to the bit because I was looking for
12the particular passage you rely on.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right. Well, there are two passages, 639 to 40 and 642 to
143, by Hitler's attitude towards the Jews. All right.
15 MR IRVING:     It does not amount to a row of beans really, does
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Brottigan/Schumndt, pages 645 to 6.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you read the diaries of Brottigan which I found in
19the Library of Congress? Are you aware that I found the
20diary of Otto Brottigan in the Library of Congress, the
21handwritten diary?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And Christa Schroeder ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you answer my question, please?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, yes. I am aware you found it, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there anything in the handwritten diary of Otto
26Brottigan which indicates a knowledge of Hitler of the

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 1Final Solution in the homicidal sense?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right, page 645.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is Wolga German's episode, is it not?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is to say, in the report that Rosenberg urged a kind
 7of retaliation for the Stalin deportation of all the
 8Germans to Siberia.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not read that as suggesting that
10Brottigan thought that Hitler knew.
11 MR IRVING:     You come to Christa Schroeder?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, page 652. I did this very hastily, I am afraid, just
13after the lunch. Speaking to Gita Szereni, of course,
14Hitler knew it was all his ideas, his orders who remembers
15a particular incident.
16 MR IRVING:     Christa Schroeder was pretty frank with me, was she
17not, Hitler's private secretary? She told me about Hitler
18after the Night of the Long Knives and things like that.
19I remember: "I have had a shower and I feel as clean as
20new born baby", episodes like that.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     On that particular incident, yes. That was some years
22before, I believe, not in 1977. In other words, it was
23earlier, was it not?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Schroeder is again categorical. Hitler knew
25perfectly well he had been told by Himmler.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

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 1 MR IRVING:     Where is this?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The top of page 650.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is the book by Christa Schroeder, is it?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it is an interview by Gita Szereni with Christa
 5Schroeder in an article Szereni wrote about your work.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware that I am conducting a libel action against
 7Gita Szereni?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What has that got to do with this case?
10 MR IRVING:     The following question will explain, my Lord.
11I have asked for her notes on the discussion with
12Schroeder by way of discovery and she has said that no
13notes were taken. Are you aware of that?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You would have to show me the correspondence before I will
15believe you, Mr Irving.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     She must have taped it; she could not have
17kept it all in her head, Mr Irving?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Tape recorders did exist in 1977.
19 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I do not consider Gita Szereni to be
20either a neutral or a reliable observer. I knew Christa
21Schroeder extremely well. I persuaded her to talk me in
22very great detail over a period of 10 years. She wrote to
23me from her death bed. Your Lordship is aware that she
24gave me as a gift a prized possession of a Hitler
25self-portrait, that kind of thing, so a lot of what you
26can read here about Christa Schroeder has to be taken very

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 1much cum grano salis, in my submission.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     When did she die?
 3 MR IRVING:     In 1984, June.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think that I do not dismiss this as being Miss Szereni's
 5invention. I do not think that Miss Szereni invents
 7 MR IRVING:     Until and unless Miss Szereni can produce the
 8notes, and ----
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not necessarily notes; it could be tape recordings.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- I am sure that every effort was made the Defence in
11this action to produce the notes from her of this alleged
12interview and these alleged remarks by Christa Schroeder,
13I am afraid you and I must agree to differ on that.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I will believe it when you show the correspondence
15relating to the notes.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Would you care to deal with it this way,
17Mr Irving? Would you like to put to Professor Evans
18exactly what your case is? Is it your case that there is
19not any record, whether tapes, notes or anything, of Gita
20Szereni's interview with Christa Schroeder and she is, in
21fact, making the whole thing up?
22 MR IRVING:     Yes.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Because I think that should be put clearly,
24because she is still alive and well. Put your case, would
26 MR IRVING:     

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