Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 131 - 135 of 237

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    That is the second one. That is, of course, a sentence
 1who says that they -- in other words, it was discussed,
 2not just by Hitler, Hitler did know about it in other
 4 MR IRVING:     Can I draw your attention to page 634, please,
 5paragraph 2? You state that I did not provide the
 6statements by the stenographers Buchholz, Jonuschat,
 7Krieger, Reynitz and Thot. Is that not precisely the file
 8of which I have just drawn your attention in the bundle
 9this morning, at page 36, the written statement of
10Hitler's stenographers, that that was, therefore, in the
11Institute and available to you and your researchers?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I am just saying that you did not provide it to the
13court before this morning. That is all.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did not do what?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Provide it to the court before this morning.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware that that list is in my discovery as a
17numbered item in my discovery?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Are the actual statements there?
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     The actual statements are in the Institute of History
20where they have been ----
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     So they are not in the discovery? That is all I am
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, I think his Lordship has the point. Next name?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     636, this is Krieger, one of the stenographers.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Krieger, yes, I see.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

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 1 MR IRVING:     Ludovic Krieger.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Who as a sort of a "don't know": "It remains a problem"
 3-- it is rather awkward English -- "It remains a problem
 4first unsolved whether Hitler himself issued the orders of
 5such cruelties or authorised men as Himmler or Bormann to
 6do so or whether generally held orders were carried out by
 7subordinate organs and sadists in such a brutal and vile
 8manner" which is somehow rewritten on a different version
 9which is used by Mr Irving where he says: "For the
10present it must remain an unanswered question, whether
11Hitler himself issued specific orders ... or whether
12orders issued in generalised terms were executed by
13subordinates and sadists".
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Whose translation is the first one?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is, I think, it looks like it is originally -- it is
16such peculiar English, it looks like it was originally
17written in English actually. Anyway, he keeps it open.
18He says it is certainly possible that Hitler issued the
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is page 636?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. And then Buchholz, page 636, again it was never
23 MR IRVING:     "It is possible that Hitler issued the order", what
24does he mean by that?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He is just saying that; it is possible that he issued the
26orders of such cruelties.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is possible the Queen Mother issued the orders, but we
 2are dealing with likelihoods here, are we not?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, but you are saying that, you are drawing a conclusion
 4from all these people's testimony that they all thought it
 5was not possible.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     No, the conclusion that I have drawn is that all of them
 7were questioned and all of them came out -- in every case
 8the interrogators drew a blank, if I can put it like
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, well, there are two issues here which you have already
11mentioned. One is whether or not the extermination of the
12Jews was actually discussed in Hitler's entourage to which
13these people all said, leaving aside whether you believe
14it or not, no; and the second question, whether they
15concluded from that that Hitler did not know about them,
16which is the conclusion that you draw from their
17evidence. I am saying here, in this series of examples,
18that they did not, in fact, draw that conclusion.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware of the fact that in most of these cases I
20personally interviewed all these men myself?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     That I am capable to judge whether they are telling the
23truth or not and the nature of the evidence they are
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     You do not accept that?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, no, I think you wait for the answer you want and you
 2do not probe any deeper.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     So I am not capable of detecting forgeries or lies or
 4anything like that?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not when people are saying what you want them to say, no.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we have another name?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Buchholz: "The Fuhrer did not discover" -- well, "The
 8treatment of political prisoners in concentration camps
 9was never discussed in the briefings with Hitler at which
10I was present".
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page, please?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     636. "The reason why lies in the fact", he says, "the
13reason lies" and then: "The circle of those in the know
14had been kept very small. I am convinced that such
15questions have always been treated between the Fuhrer and
16the Reichsfuhrer SS", that is Himmler, "Himmler in strict
17confidence. Especially in last half year, such
18conversations between these two often took place, usually
19before or after a briefing at which Himmler appeared".
20And then ----
21 MR IRVING:     Can I stop you?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a specific claim that Hitler did
23know, is it not?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
25 MR IRVING:     Yes, but it is based on the fact that Himmler and
26Hitler met in private and that this, therefore, invites

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 1the following immediate question, do we not have the notes
 2which Himmler drew up for the meetings of the ----
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, not obviously -- one does not know whether they are
 4complete or not.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor Evans, have we not been not been looking at some
 6of the handwritten notes ----
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Mr Irving, the ----
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- the handwritten notes of the ----
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     These members of this staff are giving their opinion.
10What we are talking about here is their opinion. You have
11said that because they say that there was no discussion in
12Hitler's entourage, therefore, Hitler did not know about
13it. I am quoting the opinions of various of these people
14that Hitler did know. That is what is at issue. That is
15a separate matter from whether Hitler really did know or
16not. It is a question of ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Shall we look at exactly what Buchholz says?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     -- a question of the evidence. Yes, indeed.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     He says: "I am convinced that such questions have always
20been treated between the Reichsfuhrer and Hitler and
21Himmler in strict confidence". Of course, Buchholz is,
22effectively, saying, "I do not know what happened between
23them", is he not?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, no. He is actually saying he knows what ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He is guessing, I suppose that is fair, is it

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