Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 121 - 125 of 237

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    Well, the memoranda you are referring to I think is a
 1the Jews are not to be liquidated only interned, and in
 2fact the document deals with a separate conversation
 3between the minister and Ribbentrop, and all it says is
 4that "Hitler personally drew the attention of His Highness
 5the Regent [which is Horthy] to the necessity of settling
 6in a more thorough and penetrating manner the Jewish
 7question in Hungary". That is all it says. It is about
 8many other things as well. As for euphemisms, that is
 9just a diplomatic phrase.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     No, but why should they have pussy footed around in their
11own internal Hungarian memoranda? I can understand why
12the Germans adopted euphemisms for their murderous
13programme, but why should the Hungarians have had to adopt
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, this is an extremely sensitive issue, as we know.
16The Hungarian government actually refused to deliver the
17Hungarian Jews and for that and because the Hungarian
18forces were partly withdrawn from the war effort as
19Germany's ally, Hungary was actually invaded and Horthy
20was pushed aside. This is a very, very sensitive issue
21within the Hungarian ministries.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I was under the impression they had
23voluntarily in the end handed over the Hungarian Budapest
25 MR IRVING:     It was not voluntary. They sent Adolf Eichmann to
26do it.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It was not, no. The Germans invaded and sent Eichmann in
 2who organized it himself.
 3 MR IRVING:     They question is, my Lord, and I am sure your
 4Lordship appreciates it.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I understand why you put the question.
 6It was my ignorance, I did not realise what had been...
 7 MR IRVING:     (To the Witness) The question is, quite simply,
 8you have not found anywhere in the Hungarian files, or in
 9my copies from the Hungarian files, any explicit
10references that make plain that the Hungarians were aware
11that killing was what lay ahead?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, they must have been -- the Hungarian file?
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, no, and I think obviously Storgzy (?) who was the
15minister concerned, is much more favourable to the Germans
16than Horthy was, and was, in fact, put into power by the
17Germans when they invaded. So he may well have felt it
18necessary internally, in the internal power games he was
19playing to cloak what was being asked in a certain amount
20of euphemism, but that is only speculation on my part. I
21do not want know enough about the ins and outs of
22bureaucratic Hungarian politics at this time.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Thank you, my Lord, I think we have made good progress.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But it is a fair point, is it not, that if
25this was something that they were being dragged kicking
26and screaming into doing against their will, you would

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 1think from their own point of view that they would have
 2recorded in their own internal documents something to the
 3effect that, you know, this is all ghastly. We know what
 4is going to happen to these Jews and we are doing
 5everything we can to prevent it happening.
 6 THE WITNESS:     Well, I think, my Lord, one has to make a
 7distinction between this particular politician, Storgzy,
 8who was no doubt looking for the main chance, which he
 9eventually got when the Nazis invaded and was put into
10power and Horthy who was the one who really objected.
11I think Storgzy was much less hostile towards the idea and
12therefore may well have felt the need for euphemism.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Perhaps one should draw attention, save me coming
14back to it, to paragraph 3, the last part, on page 444,
15and the last sentence of page 445 i Professor Evans'
17 THE WITNESS:     Yes, this is Horthy deleting the reference to
18"extirpation" from his letter to the Germans. It is not
19an internal memorandum.
20 MR IRVING:     Reference to "ausrotten", right. Was Horthy
21surrounded by a large staff of people with him? Did he
22have interpreters with him and flunkeys who also attended
23the conference?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have to say I do not know how many people came with him.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, shall we say five past 2? How are you
26doing, Mr Irving, are you more or less on course?

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 1 MR IRVING:     We have made excellent progress.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, do not rush your fences, particularly
 3on the big points.
 4 MR IRVING:     If your Lordship thinks I am rushing then please
 5slow me down.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I have tried to slow you down on the
 7odd occasion. But five past 2.
 8 (Luncheon Adjournment)
 9(2.05 p.m.)
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Evans, you were going to help us
11about the Adjutants, I think, were you not? If you had
12the chance to see whether there were any who, on
13reflection, did say that they thought Hitler knew about
14the extermination? I think that was the point, was it
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I have looked very hastily at my report. I refer you
17to pages -- oh, yes, well, first of all, page 622 of my
18report and pages 15 to 16 of my letter of 10th January
19this year which makes it clear that the conversation which
20Engel reported was on 2nd November, and Himmler was
21reporting to Hitler about what was going on with the Jews
22in Riga and Minsk at the very time when shootings were
23taking place. It seems highly likely that they were
24discussed. Pages 629 to 30.
25 MR IRVING:     Can I take them one at a time, my Lord?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I think that probably is better in the

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 1end, Professor Evans, if you would not mind?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have 10 references my Lord. It may take some time.
 3 MR IRVING:     We will deal with them very rapidly. Is this the
 4only reference to Engel on which you are going to rely?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, this is all we had time to look at really.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Major Engel or Lieutenant General Engel, as he became, was
 7Hitler's Army Adjutant, is that correct? He was the Army
 8Adjutant on Hitler's staff?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right, with Hitler, yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     You never met him, did you?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I did not meet him, no.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you ever see the original diary or pages of diary on
13which this is based?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, well -- oh, I see what you mean. I explain the
15background to the diaries on page 617 to 18 of my report
16and again on pages 15 to 16 of my letter.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not going to discuss contents ----
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is a shorthand diary you are saying or?
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not going to discuss the content of the diary. Am
20I right in saying that there is a dispute over the time
21when the diaries were written?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think there is some confusion which was partly his own
23fault, but I think it is fairly clear what happened, and
24that is laid out in my report and in the letter.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am going to ask you questions. Is it right that the
26diaries were purchased by the Institute of History in

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