Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 111 - 115 of 237

<< 1-5236-237 >>
    Page 433 of your report, please, in the last indented
 1passage on this page, it is admitted that the plaintiff
 2did not draw attention to this minute, in fact, I did, did
 3I not?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     I quoted from it?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think you were doing yourself an injustice.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. So I quoted the lines of Himmler's September 1942
 8agenda in full in Hitler's War on page 392, I just merely
 9left out the reference to Globos, did I not?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is right, on paragraph 3, page 434, I note in
11going through the pleadings in the case both the defence
12and Irving are, in fact, wrong in claiming that Irving has
13not used the note by Himmler in his work.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 435, paragraph 4, I am again going to have ask you
15something from your memory, if you do not know the answer
16then just say so.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, OK.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you give one example where austvanderung as opposed to
19"evakuieren" or "umsiedein" is used explicitly by Hitler
20or anybody else as a euphemism for killing? If you do not
21know the answer then just say so.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, let me draw attention to the passage we looked at a
23little bit earlier, where he talks about that and says
24that 75 per cent of those who emigrated from Germany in
25the 19th century died.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, well, they were killed or they died of natural

.        P-112

 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well I think it is clear he means that they were
 3transported in conditions so brutal and murderous that it
 4came to the same thing.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     That they died because of privations?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Deliberately inflicted on them, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not really want to follow that up, I do not it really
 8advances it.
 9Page 441.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If we are moving to a new topic it would help
11me, Mr Irving, if you put it in context rather than just
12going to some rather small point on the text.
13 MR IRVING:     Your Lordship has rightly noticed that we have now
14moved to the Horthy meetings, Hitler and Horthy of April
16     (To the Witness) Your contention is, is it not,
17that I deliberated transposed the two sentences referred
18to on page 441?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, I did not catch... which page,
22 MR IRVING:     Page 441 of the report.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The point here is that Hitler and Ribbentrop met the
24Hungarian leader, Admiral Horthy, on 16th and 17th April
251943, and the minutes of the meeting make it clear that
26Hitler and Ribbentrop failed to get their message across

.        P-113

 1that the Hungarian Jews should be delivered to the Germans
 2for killing, on the 16th. And, in fact, seemed to have
 3failed to make clear that killing was what was actually
 4involved. So on second day, the 17th April, they put much
 5more pressure on Horthy, and were much more explicit, and
 6on the 17th April, for example, Ribbentrop said the Jews
 7had be annihilated or put in concentration camps, and
 8Hitler said the Jews i Poland were shot if they were
 9unable to work and he uses the usual language of
10tuberculous, bacilli and killing them and shooting hares
11and deer he talks about. On the previous day, on the
1216th, Hitler, when Horthy had "surely you do not mean kill
13them", Hitler had said "there is no need for that". But
14on the 17th he does not, he is much more explicit "they
15must be killed", and what is done in the account of this
16in Hitler's War is that phrase, "there is no need for
17that", is placed after an account of what Hitler on the
1817th, removing also Ribbentrop's remark about the
19concentration camps or killing into the footnote. So, in
20other words, it makes it look as if Hitler is opposing the
21killing of Jews, whereas, in fact, he was advocating it.
22That is the nub of the case.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is very clear. Thank you very much.
24 MR IRVING:     A very useful summary. But now let us cut down to
25the bottom line. Firstly, does it change the burden of
26Hitler's remark one bit whether it is uttered on the 16th

.        P-114

 1or 17th April 1943?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, it does, yes, I have already explained that Hitler
 3and Ribbentrop were much more explicit on the 17th because
 4they had failed to get their message across to Horthy who
 5was either too dim or too old or too devious to get the
 6message on the 16th, so they were more explicit on the
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     So on April 16th when Horthy apologised that he had done
 9all he decently could against the Jews and continued "but
10they can hardly have been murdered or otherwise
11eliminated" Hitler reassured him, and there is dispute
12between us on that, "there is no need for that"?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, there is no need for them to be murdered
15or otherwise eliminated?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is he not being perfectly explicit there on April 16th as
18to what Adolf Hitler's position is?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. He is drawing back from the actual brutality of
20saying "yes, that is what I do mean". He is trying to
21throw up a bit of smoke screen there. In saying "give us
22your Jews", as it were, and Horthy says, "well, we do not
23really want to do that if they are going to be killed" and
24Hitler "says all right, that is okay, just give them to
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     

.        P-115

<< 1-5236-237 >>