Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 106 - 110 of 237

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    Is that the "abschaffung" of the French
 2 MR IRVING:     No, my Lord, it is the Juden austvanderung which
 3is one reason.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry, what date did you say? December
 6 MR IRVING:     September 22nd 1942.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry.
 8 MR IRVING:     And it is Himmler's handwritten agenda for a
 9conversation with Hitler on which he firmly noted down
10before going into see Hitler the topic of Juden
11austvanderung, emigration of the Jews; how are we to
13     Then there is a new topic underneath that about
14the settlement of Lublin.
15 THE WITNESS:     Yes.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
17 MR IRVING:     It will be in my bundle in the chain of documents,
18my Lord.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. What are you going to ask? Are you
20going to ask more about that?
21 MR IRVING:     One or two minor things, because he has dealt with
22it in some detail. I am not going to ask about where they
23were going.
24     On page 430, these are ancillary documents to
25his argument on this, paragraph 4, line 2. I am afraid
26you have not provided the document for this, so we are

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 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     We are not in a position to judge the quality of this
 4source. It is not in the bundle. I looked. You have
 5quoted it from Brightman and from Labotsnik's file. Now
 6we know from various sources, including Himmler's letter
 7to his mistress?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is generally publicly available, is it?
 9 MR RAMPTON:     That is not the first time Mr Irving has mentioned
10that correspondence. It is evident he has either got it,
11or he has seen it, or knows where to find it. We would be
12very much obliged if it were disclosed.
13 MR IRVING:     I am sure you would.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is not really an answer, Mr Irving. If
15you have it, it should have been disclosed. Do you have
17 MR IRVING:     My Lord, they are aware from the correspondence.
18It is not in my custody, power or possession. I read
19through the entire file in Chicago. It is in private
20hands and I have made a three page note which I
21have supplied to the Defendants now.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And you have not taken copies of it? Or of
23any of it?
24 MR IRVING:     The gentleman concerned wanted a quarter million
25dollars for them.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have you taken any copies of any of it?

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 1 MR IRVING:     There is one page of which I have a facsimile which
 2I provided. But I provided to the Defendants the note
 3I took at the time on that, which is pretty full and
 4extensive. The reference, from memory, it is Himmler
 5writes to this female in July 1942. He is just about to
 6set out on a swing round Lublin and Auschwitz and other
 7places. He mentions Auschwitz by name and says there are
 8ugly things that he has to do for Germany's sake. But
 9that is the sense of it. I have not got the exact
10quotation. But anyway we do know that he had set out.
11     He the question is, witness, at this time, this
12letter is just after Himmler had visited Lublin,
13Auschwitz --
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, just pause a moment, if you can
15bear in mind that we have all got to get, or at least
16I have to get my bearings, Mr Rampton, it seems to me that
17cannot be taken any further.
18 MR RAMPTON:     What cannot?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have had a synopsis.
20 MR RAMPTON:     No, I sat down. I have not seen it. I do not know
21when we had it but that is --
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, chase it up if you want to raise it
24 MR RAMPTON:     That is my problem. That is not Mr Irving's
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, so are we back to the Himmler minute of

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 122nd September?
 2 MR IRVING:     July 22nd 1942, it is very interesting period, is
 3it not, witness?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     September?
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, or July --
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Page 430, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- 430, yes. Labotsnik has written a message in which
 8apparently he says the Reichsfuhrer SS has given us so
 9much new work that with it now all our most secret wishes
10are to be fulfilled; I am unhappy about this omission
11after the word "Reichsfuhrer SS" because we have
12established you have a bit of a track record of leaving
13things out, have you not, Professor?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, leave aside that is gratuitous as well,
16where is the document?
17 MR IRVING:     We do not have the document, my Lord, I have not
18been shown it.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I know you do not, I am asking the
20witness, where is the document that you are quoting from.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is in the Berlin document centre. It is cited in a
22book by Richard Brightman called The Architecture of
23Genocide. It is not -- I mean, it does not play a very
24important part in the report, I have to say I am not quite
25concern why Mr Irving is asking about it.
26 MR IRVING:     It is in the report, I am entitled to ask you, what

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 1do you think --
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Of course you are entitled to ask, I am not --
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- what do you think our most secret wishes are at that
 4time? Do you have any indication from the document that
 5the secret wishes concern the homicidal disposal of the
 6Jews en masse?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     -- I think that is one possible interpretation of that --
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     One possible interpretation --
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     -- given the fact that that is what Labotsnik was doing.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- is it not evident from the September 22nd document, the
11handwritten agenda, that the discussion between Hitler and
12Himmler in which Labotsnik was mentioned was in fact the
13resettlement of the Lublin area with the ethnic Germans
14and this might equally well have been the most secret
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, the two were, of course, combined, and in fact on
1718th July 1942 Himmler had ordered that the Jews must
18finally disappear from Lublin, which is on page 495 of the
19Himmler calendar. So very shortly before this the
20disappearance of the Jews from Lublin to make way for
21these ethnic Germans moved in there, of course was to be
22undertaken by Labotsnik and involved sending them off to
23Treblinka where the killing started on the 23rd July. So
24I think it is reasonable to assume that he is talking here
25about the whole package. These two things are very
26intimately connected.

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