Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition

Pages 101 - 105 of 237

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 1 MR IRVING:     In that case we will have a look. 388. "It is a
 2life and death struggle between the Aryan race and the
 3Jewish bacillus" is the reference I am accused of
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure what are you looking for. The
 6allegation against you by Professor Evans is that you did
 7not --
 8 MR IRVING:     I left out --
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Presumably in the Goebbels book refer to the
10passage which Goebbels has talking about Hitler as being a
11persistent pioneer and spokesman of radical --
12 MR IRVING:     Here, too, the Fuhrer is the staunch champion and
13promoter of a radical solution, and I am accused of having
14omitted it and in fact it is on page 308 of the Goebbels
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Which page of my report is this?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 426.
18 MR IRVING:     Ah.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, at least that is where I assumed you
21 MR IRVING:     Yes. Yes, it is staring me in the face, three
22lines from the bottom of the main text.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     It has also been shown how Irving manipulated the diary
25entry in order to omit the Goebbels' reference to Hitler
26as the persistent pioneer and spokesman of a radical

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 1solution to the Jewish question"?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you look at page 388 of Goebbels book it is there.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     388 or 308?
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     388, it is there.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     To be fair to the witness, this is a reference
 7back to -- I do not see a reference to the Goebbels book
 9 MR IRVING:     Hitler's War.
10 MR RAMPTON:     I think it is a reference back to Hitler's War?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I was about to say that, my Lord. I do not deal with
12the Goebbels book in this section.
13 MR RAMPTON:     No, I think that is right.
14 MR IRVING:     But you agree that it is in the Goebbels biography
15because this, page 388, and it is relevant as concerns
16Goebbels, but not very relevant as concerns Hitler; is
17that a fair statement?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But you omit it from Hitler's War.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, do you accept it is not very relevant
22as far as Hitler is concerned?
23 MR IRVING:     Do you accept that the entry incriminates Goebbels,
24but does not incriminate Hitler?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not, no.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     In law, would it incriminate Hitler?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not a lawyer, Mr Irving, I am an historian.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What do you mean by "in law", Mr Irving? Do
 3you mean as hearsay as regards Hitler?
 4 MR IRVING:     In a criminal case, would that be accepted?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think it matters whether it would or
 6it would not. We have to look at hearsay in an historical
 7context. We have spent most of the morning looking at
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Particularly in the so-called Schlagerberger memorandum.
10It is hearsay twice removed. You rely very, very heavily
11on that.
12 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, when were faced with an abundance
13of documentation and materials and you are obliged to
14write a book that does not contain eight pages of sludge
15every now and then would you agree that the first kind of
16thing that you would chop out would be the hearsay and you
17would leave the hard core stuff in like the police decodes
18and material like that?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But you do not do that, Mr Irving. There is masses of
20hearsay. As I said the so-called Schlagerberger memorandum
21is nothing but hearsay twice removed.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     I will ask the question again.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If it suits you, Mr Irving, you will put this hearsay in.
24If it suits you to discredit it because it is hearsay
25because it does not conform to your arguments you will
26leave it out. You have double standards in dealing with

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 1this evidence.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, the question, I will ask it again is;
 3as a historian, Professor, do you agree that if you are
 4cutting down a published work for a new edition, the first
 5thing that goes is hearsay evidence?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I cannot agree with that as a general, global statement,
 7my Lord. It depends on what you are writing about, and,
 8of course, it depends on what the quality of other
 9evidence bearing on this particular problem is. There are
10occasions when we have to rely on hearsay evidence, though
11one would perhaps rather not.
12 MR IRVING:     Page 427, please, the last sentence. You say there
13is a number of documents and sources which strongly
14suggest that Hitler knew all along. So at the end of all
15this all can you do is say the document strongly suggests
16something; is that right?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. It seems to me a reasonable statement. I think
18history is about balances of probability, I think.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is a rather damning statement for the defence in this
20action though because what you do not say, and apparently
21you can not say, is that there is a number of documents
22which prove beyond reasonable doubt that Hitler knew, or
23even prove on the balance of probabilities. It is just
24saying you strongly suggest it, after all this huffing and
25puffing and after 55 years of searching through the
26archives and after millions of dollars which your defence

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 1assistants have spent the most you can say is "strongly
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is that meant to be question?
 4 MR IRVING:     It is. Well, there was a --
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You know what I am getting at, Mr Irving.
 6 MR IRVING:     Well, sometimes the answers are also long, my Lord.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     True.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Am I supposed to try and answer that?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I think you have answered it.
10 MR RAMPTON:     So do I.
11 MR IRVING:     In other words, there is nothing better than just
12strongly suggest that is how far we have reached?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think they do strongly suggest and the point is, of
14course, that these documents, which do strongly suggest to
15the objective historian that Hitler knew all along, are
16not directly confronted by you and taken into account by
17you, but they are manipulated, misrepresented or
18suppressed. That is the conclusion.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, we are on page 428. We are now on the Himmler
20minute of 22nd September 1942, on which I have
21cross-examined this witness in connection with the chain
22of evidence.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I thought we dealt with this.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, really, there is just one or two little dotting Is and
25crossing the Ts?

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is one possible inference, right?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think it is a reasonable inference.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     But the document obviously does not tell us anything else
 4more specific, otherwise it would have been quoted, would
 5it not?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is what I think he is talking about. He is
 7talking about the killing, mass killing of Jews to make
 8way for the people resettling the Lublin area from
 9Bessarabia, Lorraine and Bosnia, ethnic Germans.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Would Labotsnik have had a particular wish to
11see Lublin being cleared of the Jews as quickly as
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think, yes, I think that is certainly the case, yes.
14 MR IRVING:     Would it have been a security wish? Was he chief of
15police in that region?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     The remaining messages in that paragraph, you do accept
18that I have adequately used them or referred to them in my
19biographies of Hitler and Goebbels?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Goodness, you do cite them, yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Despite their very ugly language --
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You certainly cite them --
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- the reference to the 5,000 members of the chosen people
24and so on?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     -- yes, you cite them.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     

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