Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 91 - 95 of 207

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    Do you see any connection with this kind of general chain
 1"These kinds of mass shootings have to stop"?
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Well, I am sorry, that just ----
 3 MR IRVING:     Mr Rampton, I do wish you would stop interrupting
 4every time we are doing something.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Counsel, I am afraid, as his Lordship will tell
 6Mr Irving, has a right to intervene when the
 7cross-examination is proceeding on a false and time
 8wasting basis. He has a duty to the court and to his
 9client and to the witness. It is not possible for that
10question to be answered as though the second sentence did
11not exist, in my submission.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have well in mind the whole of it, and
13I think one has to take the whole of it in end, Mr Irving.
14 MR IRVING:     My Lord, we are very definitely going to come to
15the second sentence, but I do respectfully submit that
16I am taking this in the proper sequence, and we will give
17each part of that second sentence the weight that it
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, you see, I do not really see that you
20can do that. If by taking half the sentence you really
21significantly distort the sense of the whole of it, it
22seems to me the question is being asked on something of a
23false premise.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is the difficulty. I think what you
26ought to do, if I may suggest it, is proceed the other way

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 1round, as it were, and deal with the latter part of it,
 2namely that the shootings are to be carried out more
 3discreetly, and put your case.
 4 MR IRVING:     If that will make my case more comprehensible to
 5your Lordship, I will willingly do that.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know what it is because you have just
 7mentioned it. I think that is the right way of doing it,
 8if I may say so, and it meets Mr Rampton's objection.
 9 MR IRVING:     I appreciate why Mr Rampton keeps on interrupting
10and it is now becoming statistically evident that every
11time I am about to make what I consider to be an important
12point ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If I thought he were doing that, I would tell
14him to desist.
15 MR IRVING:     Because it does seriously disrupt the flow of
16cross-examination when this occurs.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, do not let it disrupt it any more.
18 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, I referred just now to the message
19decoded on December 1st. There were, in fact, three
20messages, the first one on the morning of December 1st was
21from Jaeckel to Himmler saying: "I need to have six more
22tommy guns". Can you accept that as being the fact? We
23have seen them in court.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     The next one from Himmler's staff to Jaeckel later on
26December 1st says: "You are to report back to the

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 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     "And tell us what means of travel your are adopting".
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Report back, not to the Fuhrer.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     And the second message is signed by Himmler himself, with
 6what I aver is greater urgency, saying: "This kind of
 7arbitrary action has exceeded the guidelines"----
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it says: "Arbitrary actions".
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Arbitrary actions" ----
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It does not say: "This kind of arbitrary action", does
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not want to ----
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "Eigenmachtigkeiten und zuwieder Handlungen," or
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Und zuwieder Handlungen werden strengsens bestraft".
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, exactly.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this not an indication that the shootings were done in
18disfavour at one of the highest levels, if I can put it
19like that?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, this relates to the shooting of the transport from
21Berlin by Jaeckel which ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now we are coming to ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Which Himmler, on 30th November, Himmler and Heydrich
24clearly wanted to be stopped and did not get to on time.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now we are coming to the point which his Lordship attaches
26importance. Is there any hint in these messages that went

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 1from one of these highest levels out to Jaeckel, that
 2shootings could continue provided they were done in
 3surreptitious way?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The reference in those clearly refers to Jews who were
 5transported from Berlin. It clearly relates to the
 6trainload that came on 30th November and was shot, and it
 7quite clearly relates to the shooting of Jews who were
 8transported from Germany. Himmler and Heydrich wanted it
 9to stop and, indeed, it does stop. What the Bruns
10document says is, in effect, that mass shootings must
11continue but more discreetly. They do not ----
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we remain with the hard evidence which is the decodes,
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry, the hard evidence is, "here is an order that
15has come saying that mass shootings of this kind" ----
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     No, we are referring to the decodes.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- "may no longer take place in the future. That is to be
18done more cautiously".
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which is?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You interpret that as saying Hitler seemingly intervened
21at once to order a "halt zu diese Masseneschiessungen" --
22these mass shootings -- whereas the word actually says:
23"Der artige Masseneschiessung" -- this kind of mass
24shooting, and you leave out the sentence about this having
25to be done more cautiously.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     If I can halt the flow of words for one moment ----

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What Bruns is talking about is an order to continue them
 2more discreetly, and you are presenting this as an order
 3to stop them altogether. Indeed, what we know is that
 4four days after Jaeckel was given his dressing down by
 5Himmler about the shooting of transports from Berlin, the
 6rest of the Riga ghetto of local Jews was shot by Jaeckel.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     I hesitate to halt this kind of flow of verbiage, but I
 8have to.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     So presumably, Himmler must have therefore discussed with
10Jaeckel the shootings of the Jews in Riga.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we try and keep to the point. You referred to the
12hard evidence, which is the harder kind of evidence,
13decoded messages intercepted on the same day in real time
14by the British, of which the SS have no knowledge that we
15are decoding them whatsoever and which have been in the
16British archives ever since then, or something said at
17second or third hand by a German Army General four years
18later? Which is the hard evidence, in your view?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Hard evidence of what?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we look at the documents. It is all so
21unsatisfactory. Are we talking about J1 tab 3, page 17 or
22some other document? If you want me to follow it, you are
23going to have to tell me which document you are talking
25 MR IRVING:     I am referring to the police decodes of December
261st, 1941, on the one hand, and the Bruns document of

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