Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 86 - 90 of 207

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Though you would like to discredit everything that is
 2critical that is said about Hitler.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, a statement made by Canaris would not
 4necessarily be untrue ----
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- but you might want to have a document to back it up,
 7another document, a second source?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I think you have to make it clear that Canaris is who
 9he is.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     At the top of the following page, of course, you quote
11then what information came back from Canaris.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     "This man", Canaris, "who has constant access to the
14Fuhrer is said to have described the consequences and the
15terrible nature of these methods, namely the killings, to
16the F", Hitler, "once more compellingly" ----
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- "whereupon he", Hitler, "is said to have said, 'You
19want to show weakness, do you, Mein Herr, I have to do
20that for after me there will not be another one to do it".
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, "I had to do the killings".
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     And this is Canaris' statement about what Hitler's
25response to him was?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     And is the fact that the channel of information that it
 2comes through Admiral Canaris not sufficient to make one
 3want possibly to quote that reference, but add a caveat at
 4the end and say, "Well, of course, Admiral Canaris may
 5have been reporting something genuinely, but it has to be
 6borne in mind that he was later hanged as a member of the
 7anti-Hitler resistance"?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I do not -- I mean, I do not think that it
 9necessarily disproves it. I mean, the crucial thing
10really is that this, this is obviously a second-hand
11evidence and one has to make that clear, but I do not
12think, as I say, you should discredit, or I do not think
13you should say that I think it is unlikely that people who
14disapproved of Hitler and his methods simply made up
15things about him. I think the members of the German
16resistance were honourable men.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Are you aware of the fact that I have large parts of
18the private diary and official diary of Admiral Canaris
19and his second-in-command, Colonel Naruzon, also? They
20both kept diaries and I have parts of the Canaris diary
21which were in British Cabinet Office files right up to
22June 1943, covering this period, in other words?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You mean they are in British Cabinet Office files?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So what? What is the significance of that?
26 MR IRVING:     I was going to ask in the best way I can that if

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 1there is no reference to any such remark by Adolf Hitler
 2in that diary, would that be one reason, if this
 3information had been before me at any time?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Too many "ifs" there; I would have to see the diary with
 5dates, but it does say here that he is, that he has said
 6to have described the consequences ----
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- whereupon Hitler is said to have said, so it is
 9clear. I mean, it is an important piece of evidence, but
10it is very indirect and I think one has to make that
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     So there are two parts of that statement, that he made the
13report to Hitler which is probably credible because that
14is why the report had been sent to him?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Whereupon, and this is the second part of the statement,
17Hitler is said to have said something?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     And then at some point in time, two or three days later
20about, a message comes back out to Riga saying, "These
21shootings have to stop. These kind of mass killings, mass
22shootings have to stop". This is the first part. I know
23we will come to the part you want to come to next.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We have to be clear about the dates here.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sometime after 30th November 1941?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right.

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 1 MR IRVING:     Sometime after 30th November?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     January '42 being the letter. So we do not know exactly
 3when this actually happened. It is a piece of supporting
 4evidence for what is in the Bruns document.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you look at the end of the Bruns Report where Bruns
 6describes going back at some time to see the man he refers
 7to as Altenmeyer, but in fact his name was Altemeyer ----
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- a 23 year-old SS gangster who was the big top brass on
10the spot. Altemeyer says, "We have received this new
11order saying that this kind of mass shootings have to
12stop", and then he adds a sneering comment afterwards
13which we will come to in a minute?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, yes.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think perhaps one ought to read the whole
16of what is quoted?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     One should read the whole thing.
18 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I do want to take this in two parts, if I
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It would help, I think, if I read the whole thing.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you should.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "Altenmeyer triumphantly shows me, 'Here's an order that
23has come that saying that mass shootings of this kind may
24no longer take place in the future. That is to be done
25more cautiously or discreetly".
26 MR IRVING:     Shall we take the first part of that first? If

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 1this order has come, that this kind of mass shootings have
 2got to stop, what does your supposition about whether,
 3knowing what you now do about the report that went up from
 4Canaris, through Canaris to the "F", to the Fuhrer, and
 5that back comes this order saying, "This kind of mass
 6shootings has got to stop", can you draw any conclusions
 7from that?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, it would seem likely that the order derived from
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     And is there any connection at all, do you think, with the
11police decodes we looked at yesterday from Himmler,
12December 1st 1941, where he orders Jaeckel straight to
13Fuhrer's Headquarters on December 4th and there is a
14meeting between the two of them on December 4th, "These
15arbitrary measures have got to stop. You have got to
16stick to the guidelines. I will severely punish actions
17like this." Do you see any connection between all this?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, Himmler's meeting with Jaeckel was in his own
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you see any connection with this kind of general chain
21of events, that killings were going on and they stopped,
22that there are orders that these mass shootings have got
23to stop and there are reports to Hitler? Do you see, does
24your brain -- I know it is difficult for you to grapple
25with totally new concepts, but here is this matter. We
26are trying to work out who possibly may have ordered,

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