Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 81 - 85 of 207

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     It is a very bad copy, I am afraid. It is J1, tab
 24, my Lord. It is very difficult to read.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Do we have a page number?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     It is the beginning of tab 4.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, of course, that is right.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     So it is a wartime copy document.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right.
 9 MR IRVING:     Have you found the passage towards the end of the
10report where they are discussing, the question was who was
11going to bring it to the Fuhrer's attention?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you agree that Colonel Bruns at that time was a senior
14German Army Engineer Officer in Riga?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     At the time he is referring to, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     At the time he is referring to, but at the time of this
17conversation that the British have overheard he is a Major
18General ----
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- in British captivity?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right. It is, whatever you call it, a spying, a
22record made by the British without the Germans, the
23captives, knowing that it was being made.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     What kind of reliance would you place on a report like
25this on the British intercept, if I can call it that, of
26an overheard conversation? Is it liable to be dependable,

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 1used with caution, with proper circumspect?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     One should use all documents with proper circumspect and
 3caution, but it is certainly, since they do not seem to
 4have been aware that they were being recorded, it does
 5seem to be quite reliable.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     There might be a tendency to brag a bit or possibly even
 7to conceal things they had a guilty conscious about?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you got your answer "yes" is the
10 MR IRVING:     The reason I am about to ask this is to say how
11would this compare with the testimony given by somebody in
12the witness box at Nuremberg, the same person? Would it
13be more reliable or less reliable?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That would -- I mean, one has to take all these things
15individually and actually look at them. One would be
16perhaps a little more suspicious at the testimony in the
17witness box at Nuremberg, but one would have to take these
18things on their merits.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Having read the Bruns Report or scanned it, would you
20agree that he is describing something he actually
21witnessed, the shooting of these people at the pits, the
22girl with the flame red dress ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     "I see her in my mind's eye even now"?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     The same General Bruns in 1948, did he not deny that he

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 1had witnessed these things? He said in the witness box
 2under oath that, yes, he had received reports on it and he
 3had sent people out to see what was going on?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, in fact, there are distinctions between the calibre of
 6evidence? Sometimes ----
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the witness has accepted that
 9 MR IRVING:     Yes.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I mean, clearly here he did not think he was
11implicating himself because he thought he was talking in
12private, whereas in the witness box he was very careful
13about making any admissions.
14 MR IRVING:     So used with proper caution, a document like this
15CSDIC report is a valuable source?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     What kind of cautions were then used about what one
18accepts? Should one be careful about hearsay where they
19are reporting what B has said to C, or is there any other
20kind of caution you would apply?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, cautious in every -- I mean, you take it on its
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     A self-serving statement you would be cautious about?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If it is obviously self-serving, yes, but, as I say, it is
25less likely to be self-serving in these circumstances than
26it is in the witness box.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with these CSDIC reports? Have you
 2worked with them in any detail?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have not, no.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have not?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is something like 50,000 pages of these overheard
 7conversations with top Nazis and you never used them?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, come on, Mr Irving, is that helpful?
 9 MR IRVING:     Page 359 -- I am sorry, we had better have a look
10at page 358 at paragraph 3. What happened to the report
11that went up to Hitler, that was finally sent up to
12Hitler? How did it go, do you know?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You tell me, Mr Irving.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it right that the report was drafted by a junior Army
15officer was sent up through what one can call Army
16channels and then across to intelligent channels to
17Admiral Canaris?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That seems to be the case, according to the Schulz-Du Bois
19document, yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     When Schulz-Du Bois refers in his letter, which was,
21apparently, written in January 1942, is that right?
22I referred you to paragraph 6.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, yes, it is certainly uncertain. I mean, his wife
24dated it to January '42, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, Schulz-Du Bois did not survive the war?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     On the foot of page 359, you say the report had been
 2forwarded to the top counter-espionage official. Is that
 3a reference to Admiral Canaris?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I presume it is, yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you consider a statement made by Admiral Canaris as
 6against Adolf Hitler to be dependable or not? In other
 7words, if he had made a statement that was critical of
 8Adolf Hitler, would that be dependable?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Those are two different questions.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     The second question.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Again, one does regard this in the same way as other
12sources. I mean, this is ----
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was Adolf Hitler a member of the anti-Hitler resistance?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You mean was Canaris?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry. Was Admiral Canaris -- a Freudian slip -- was
16a member of the anti-Hitler resistance and was he hanged
17for this on April 8th 1945?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He was indeed, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     So a statement made by Admiral Canaris to the disadvantage
20of the Fuhrer should be viewed circumspectly, should it?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, no more circumspectly, I mean, than those of other
22members of the resistance or any other source. One takes
23all these things on their own merits. I do not think you
24can simply discredit what members of the resistance said
25about Hitler simply because they were critical of him.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Not necessarily untrue but ----

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