Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 76 - 80 of 207

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Which is why he retranscribed it in the
 2typewritten version that we have in J3 at page 13 --
 3sorry, J1, tab 3, page 13. I think his evidence was that
 4he retranscribed the word "haben" from "Juden" on a
 5typewriter which I think he said he had thrown away over
 615 or 20 years ago.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So, mid 80s?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I think it is early to mid 80s. I am open to
 9correction. That was done entirely from memory, but I
10think that is what the evidence was about it.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you remember, Mr Irving, as a matter
12of ----
13 MR IRVING:     Well, unfortunately, the mid 80s would be a crucial
14date because mid 80s is when the second edition went to
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What, the 1991 edition? It could not have
17been six years, could it?
18 MR IRVING:     Books of this size are in the gestation period a
19long time, and I sent it off to be edited down and cut
20down and trimmed, and the first edition was 1975.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     '77.
22 MR IRVING:     Well, the German edition was 1975, my Lord. 1977
23was the first English edition which means that it was
24actually finished in 1974. So it is not an easy kind of
25question to answer, that. So I think that is why it is
26more sensible to look at Goebbels and say it is quite

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 1simply ----
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it has gone from Goebbels.
 3 MR IRVING:     It has gone from Goebbels ----
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- and everybody accepts that.
 5 MR IRVING:     --- so the appropriate action was taken.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not accept that, Mr Irving. I would need to know
 8exactly when you -- when this was pointed out to you.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     You do not accept that it went from Goebbels.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, no. I do not accept that the appropriate action was
11taken as soon as it was pointed to you, but in any case
12that is not really what we are talking about. The point
13is that it was in your books in the first place.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, so to summarize your evidence, your evidence is that
15the reading of "haben" in old German handwriting as
16"Juden" was a totally perverse and deliberate action
17I took in order to exonerate Adolf Hitler?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that, in your opinion, therefore, even when you are
20confronted with the original faded photocopy that I had
21before me, and not the printed volume that scholars now
22use, this was not a permissible misreading?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I think anybody who reads the German handwriting and
24approaches this with any degree of objectivity can see
25that it says "Verwaltungsfuhrer der SS haben zu bleiben".
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     This kind of handwriting is pretty easy to read, is it? I

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 1mean, any historian can read it?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have we not really had that question asked
 3and answered?
 4 MR IRVING:     Well, I was going to ask one obvious follow up, and
 5that is if it so easy to read, why was it not until I used
 6it that it was ever used?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not dispute the fact that you were the first person
 8to read a number of documents. The point is, Mr Irving,
 9the misuse you make of them when you do read them.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is your contention that that was a sufficiently important
11sentence in that paragraph that its removal makes no
12difference to the thrust of my arguments?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think you have that sentence the wrong way round.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words that ----
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could you remind me of the page again? I foolishly shut
16the book.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Let us move on. We will move on then, for heaven's sake.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think its removal does weaken the paragraph, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you turn to page 357 of your expert report, please?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Do I need this bundle still? Sorry, let me just clear the
21decks again.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are accusing me of further ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Have we finished with this? Well, I will keep that.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     No, you will not, I will have it. It is mine.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You have it back, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor Evans, you accused me of further

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 1misrepresentations and omissions in connection with the
 2Bruns Report and the subsequent events. Page 357 of your
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     The specific omission you accuse me of is not making use
 6of or not referring to a document, a letter, written by,
 7if you look at page 359, paragraph 6, a man called
 8Schulz-Du Bois?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     You do. You say: "However, he makes no mention of the
11letter's contents"?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is not the specific -- I mean, I make a number of
13points about this, but that is one of them, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     One objection you make to my use of the Bruns document is
15that I rely on the fact that after these German Army
16officers saw what was going on, the SS shooting Jews on
17that morning November, 30th 1941, they discussed among
18themselves who was going to bring it to Hitler's
19attention, is that right?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Where is that?
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     According to General Bruns? I am telling you what is in
22the report.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right. Can you just point me to the paragraph and where
24I say that?
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am telling you what is in the report and we have had
26this evidence before the court.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In my report?
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the report by General (as he became) Bruns.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am looking in my report for where I make this
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Paragraph 1 on page 357 is your reference to it.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Irving relies on Walter Bruns as the source for his claim
 8that a report about the killings in Riga eventually
 9reached Hitler's headquarters". Does that refresh your
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. It quotes: "Hitler seemingly intervened at once to
12order a halt to 'diese Massenerschiessungen' (these mass
13shootings)" ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we take this stage by stage?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- "as soon as a report, signed by a junior officer, was
16forwarded to him".
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you be responsive to the questions I am asking?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is what you say.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you read the Bruns Report?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does the Bruns Report describe how the Army officers who
22witnessed these atrocities discussed among themselves how
23to bring it to Hitler's attention?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. Do we have a copy of that?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, we must look at it.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We must look at it, yes.

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