Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 71 - 75 of 207

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    In other words, I knew the correct meaning and
 1I deliberately chose the other one? That is what the word
 2"deliberate" means.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, I knew it was "haben" but I deliberately
 5wrote it as "Juden" and I hoped nobody would look at the
 6original document, is that right
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, it is quite clear from this that it is "haben". I
 8find it very difficult to think ----
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Not, that is not what I am asking. You are saying,
10"I knew that it was wrong and I deliberately wrote the
11wrong word"?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, we are getting a bit into psychology here. I mean,
13as it, I am trying to second guess your thought processes
14here, but I think you wanted to find a statement like
15this, and when you found what you thought was a statement
16like that, you just said, "Hooray" and you did not care to
17look at it any closer. You misread this. You were
18mislead by your overwhelming desire to exculpate the Nazi
19leadership into misreading this as "Juden" instead of
20"haben"; whereas to any objective historian, taking even
21a minimal amount of care about reading this, it was very
22easy to establish that this meant "Verwaltungsfuhrer der
23SS haben zu bleiben". To that extent, therefore, I think
24you deliberately misused and abused this text.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I just explain to you the meaning of the word
26"deliberate"? "Deliberate" means, and I am sure my Lord

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 1will correct me if I am wrong, I knew that the word was
 2"haben" and I deliberately wrote "Juden" in order to
 3serve a political end, is that what you are saying?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am saying that it is very obviously that this word
 5is ----
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is not the answer.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- "haben"; that any objective historian reading this
 8would have very little difficulty in establishing this as
 9"haben", and you put it as "Juden zu bleiben" which
10itself is grammatically an extremely peculiar phrase which
11should alert anybody to the fact that it is not likely to
12be what you say it is. You wanted it to read "Juden
13zu bleiben" and you made it read "Juden zu bleiben". That
14is what I am saying.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     So your submission to the court is that I knew it read
16"haben" and I deliberately wrote "Juden"? I have to keep
17asking this. Will you give a simple yes or no to that
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you got an answer "yes".
20 MR IRVING:     The answer is yes?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 MR IRVING:     Thank you very much, my Lord. Now, the obvious
23corollary to that is, if that sentence is taken out of the
24book, does that in the slightest change the thrust of that
25paragraph? In other words, was there any reason why the
26sentence should have been put in?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me have a look at the paragraph, please. This is
 2Hitler's war, 1977 edition.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. My Lord, this goes to the importance of the whole
 4matter really. If the answer is that it can be taken out
 5without changing the meaning, then the last 10 minutes
 6have been largely wasted.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I do not think that is right at all. So
 8that you know why I do not think that is right, I will
 9tell you reason and it is simply this, Mr Irving, that you
10might be able to say in relation perhaps even to every one
11of the passages that are criticised, "Well, by itself,
12that does not amount to much", but I think the Defendants'
13case, just so that you know what I am understanding it to
14be, is that if you put them all together, then they are of
15significance. I think that is the way it is put. I am
16not saying for a moment I accept it but ----
17 MR IRVING:     Then we would have to look at the word "all" and
18see what "all" is.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, of course.
20 MR IRVING:     Are we just going to look at three sentences and
21pick two that are adjacent where two flaws have been made
22or are we going to look at the whole book?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right, yes. Well, the paragraph ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Page 332 in the edition that I have, my Lord, Hitler's War
261977, and it consists of an accumulation of falsifications

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 1of documentary evidence of which this is one.
 2 MR IRVING:     Do you agree that the sentence complained of was
 3cut out of the following edition?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could I have a look at the following edition, please?
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or was it cut out of the Goebbels biography?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Which do you want me to look at, Mr Irving?
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Let us look at the Goebbels biography.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     It is at page 427 of the 1991 edition of Hitler's
 9War, I think.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right. Let us have a look at that first. Page 427?
11 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, 427 at the bottom. I think it is there
12actually. I do not think it is cut out at all.
13 MR IRVING:     Well, that is why I suggested the Goebbels book
14instead because the ----
15 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I have no doubt that is why.
16 MR IRVING:     Well, obviously, the error was pointed out to me
17relatively later on.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it is exactly the same, I think.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Exactly the same -- I will take your word for it, my Lord.
20 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, do you agree that the error was
21rectified in the Goebbels biography in the corresponding
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Where is this? Page, please?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     377 approximately, is it not.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Page.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     377?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     377 again.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure about that.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     I think it is 379 actually, I think it is.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is right.
 5 THE WITNESS:     That is rather difficult but, presumably, we are
 6looking for a lack of any mention.
 7 MR IRVING:     That is right but, in other words ----
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It has gone altogether, has it? Yes.
 9 MR IRVING:     --- it has gone altogether?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But, see, you are essentially lifting paragraphs from
11Hitler's War and putting them into Goebbels, but changing
12them slightly.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am relying on a reliable source, namely Hitler's War,
14when I write the Goebbels biography. Do you agree, to
15answer my question, that I took the appropriate action
16when the error was pointed out to me and that I excised it
17from all future editions of the work?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Can you give me some evidence to show when the error was
19pointed out to you? I think it was pointed out -- was
20this one of the ones pointed out by Professor Bruchsal or
21not? That is not really the issue, is it, though?
22 MR RAMPTON:     I believe the evidence of Mr Irving was in
23cross-examination that this error was pointed out to him
24some time in the early 1980s, I think by Eberhard Jaeckel,
25but I am not sure.----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am afraid I had forgotten that.

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