Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 61 - 65 of 207

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    When, in your view, did adequate contextual
 1material in this connection come into the public domain,
 2which would have enabled me to correct the misreading, let
 3me put it like that?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The adequate contextual material is there in the document
 5itself and consists of two words "aus Berlin".
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why, in your view, is that adequate contextual material as
 7to the nature of the transport or transportation?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You said adequate contextual material to correct your
 9error. Your error was that you said it is an explicit
10order that Jews were not to be liquidated without any
11mention of the fact that we are referring to Berlin.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     We are still concentrating on the word "transport" and
13I am not looking at the "aus Berlin". Will you now answer
14my question? When, in your view did adequate contextual
15material, and I am referring to other source documents,
16come to light, come into the public domain, which would
17enable one to put a proper meaning on that? I am
18referring, for example, to the police decodes.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have already given the answer, which is that there is
20adequate material in the document itself to make it quite
21clear that it means "Jew transport from Berlin".
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     As opposed----
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, really we must move on. I think
24we are spending an absurd amount of time on an issue which
25is quite clear to me, and I know what your case is. You
26have put it perfectly adequately to the witness. You do

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 1not gain anything by going on putting it to him time and
 2time again.
 3 MR IRVING:     I am trying not to go into the meaning of the
 4word. I am asking about when I should have known. This
 5is the question.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You should have known when you read it.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The witness has said perfectly clearly that
 8the context of the whole document, the document, makes it
 9clear what is being referred to and that you
10misrepresented it in your book.
11 MR IRVING:     Which is, I respectfully submit, an absurd answer.
12Anybody looking at that one document in 1970 could not
13possibly have decided between different meanings of the
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is one of the things I will have to
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Mr Irving, you did decide. You decided that it meant it
18is an explicit order from Hitler via Himmler that Jews
19were not to be liquidated. You refer to it frequently.
20Hitler ordered on November 30th 1941 -- I am quoting you
21here -- incontrovertible evidence that Hitler ordered on
22November 30th 1941 that there was to be "no liquidation of
23the Jews".
24 MR IRVING:     I am not going to get dragged back into that
25argument again because his Lordship will not allow it.
26Can we now ask the following question----

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is your interpretation of the document.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Evans, you are ONLY provoking A
 3continuation of what I think has become an exhausted
 4topic. So let us move on.
 5 MR IRVING:     When the appropriate material came into the public
 6domain, by which I mean the police decodes, SS documents
 7and other materials in the 1970s and the 1980s, did I make
 8the appropriate adjustment in the publication of the book
 9the Goebbels biography?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What page?
11 MR IRVING:     Well, this is the ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is about 379, I think. It says 379
13towards the foot of the page.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     At the bottom?
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, you made a partial strategic withdrawal, as it were.
17 MR IRVING:     A strategic withdrawal, was it, not an appropriate
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let the witness finish his answer,
20Mr Irving.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I will read these two sentences from page 379, if I may.
22"According to one army colonel who witnessed it, a train
23load of Jews from Berlin -- those expelled three days
24before -- arrived in the midst of this; Aktion, this
25killing of the Riga Jews. Its passengers were taken
26straight out to the pits and shot. This happened even as

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 1Hitler, hundreds of miles away in the Wolf's Lair, was
 2instructing Himmler that these Berlin Jews were not to be
 4     So you accept in that text that it refers to a
 5single train load of Jews, but you still maintain the
 6falsehood that it was Hitler who ordered it, with no
 7evidence whatsoever.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you now answer the question, which is, was this the
 9appropriate correction to the matter of one train load as
10opposed to transportation?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. In that respect, it most certainly was.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you agree with me that historians or writers or
13scholars sometimes differ on the inference they draw from
14identical documents, that you will have one reading on it
15from your political standpoint and I will have another
16reading on it from mine?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are now going back to what I have said we
18must leave.
19 MR IRVING:     Well, we now move on to the document of December
201st. I now want you to look at the handwritten page,
21please. Can I ask the witness please also to look at the
22original photocopy? That was the one from which
23I worked. Near the bottom there is a telephone
24conversation. You assume in your expert report that
25Himmler telephoned General Pohl, but in fact all we know
26is that there was a conversation. Is that right?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. As I say, I have revised my views of that as a
 2result of your pointing this out.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     It refers at one point to "Verwaltungsfuhrer der SS haben
 4zu bleiben". Those two phrases are on two separate lines,
 5is that right?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     The words "haben zu bleiben" are pretty indistinct or
 8could you read it easily?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Of course, I have read this so often now, it is very
10difficult to say what I would see on first coming to it.
11The word "haben" is very distinct, it is very clear. "Zu"
12is pretty readable. The "bleiben" is a little less good,
13and the "SS" in the previous line is cut off by the edge
14of the page. But, on the whole, it is pretty readable.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is not Latin handwriting, is it? Do you know the
16name for this German handwriting that is used?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Italene. I am very familiar with it.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are very familiar with it now, or as a result of
19having worked on it for many years?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think it really matters.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have worked on it for many years, Mr Irving.
22I published an edition of documents written in it.
23 MR IRVING:     You agree that not many modern Germans can even
24read that handwriting, can they? No, that is true.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     So it is a difficult handwriting to read?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     

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